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Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

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Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Jenni » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:15 pm

Hi I bought the mag this month and read the Inside Track interview with Young Guru.
He talked about using certain hardware such as the SSL mixing desk.
How would anyone from a home recording setup who wrote a similar style of music warrant using such a desk or even owning one?
Would there be any point even if they had the funds?
Surely a Pro Tools setup would do the trick as with Young Guru who ends up working in Pro Tools anyway.
My question is I suppose, Is there any point using the SSL desk anyway and do you really need to?
Or is it a case of guys like this having access to such gear so just use it because they can?
Its not something your mate has in his bedroom!
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:49 pm

Any signal processing -- whether analogue or digital is obviously going to affect the sound quality in some way -- be it obvious or very subtle.

Some argue strongly that tracking and/or mixing in the analogue domain through a particular kind of sound desk does things to the sound that they like.

Some also prefer to build a mix in the traditional way using an analogue console, and some prefer working on SSL desks rather than Neves, or APIs, or whatever.

However, while the equipment used will inevitably flavour the result to some extent, and affect the workflow, whether the music is successful or not always comes back to the original composition, the arrangement, and the performance.

If you have a good composition, arranged well and performed brilliantly, then the challenge of recording and mixing it is relatively simple and the end result will be successful. And it won't make any difference whether you use Pro Tools, Logic, Reaper, Cubase, Digital Performer or anything else.

If you don't have a good composition, great arrangement and superb performance it won't matter if you are given a year's free studio time at Abbey Road, you still won't produce anything that anyone wants to listen to!

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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Jenni » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:55 pm

Thanks for the reply.
I mainly asked because the whole classic SSL thing seems to be part of the woodwork in Hip Hop music especially at Jay Z's level.
I have noticed all kinds of SSL products aimed at the desktop market and wondered if they are really anywhere near the real SSL console sound regardless of composition.

Forgive my newbie questions but what is a summing mixer?

Thanks.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Jack Ruston » Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:46 pm

The desktop products are 'genuine' ssl circuits and their price reflects that. But the reason that mix engineers choose ssl desks is not just because they like what the channel strips do to the sound. In fact some engineers don't, depending on the source. What happens with those desks is that the whole desk has a charachter that develops more obviously as you hit the mix busses harder. It starts to behave like a big compressor. That very compressed, crunchy, hi mid present, in your face sound that charachterises a great many rock and pop (of every genre) mixes has the ssl desk sound as a significant contributing factor. It doesn't mean that you can't achieve this in other ways, but that's the sound that the desk naturally delivers when hit hard.

An 80 series Neve on the other hand tends to make things crunchy in a rounder way. The focus is more towards the lows rather than the high mids. The desks sound 'slower' because they tend to knock transients off for a smoother sound where the ssl remains very bright and attacking as it compresses.

This is a different issue to that of the actual compressor in the ssl which is also a contributing factor.

A summing mixer is analogue mix bus in a box. It will have no eq, compression, sends etc. Often it will have nothing but a number if inputs (typically 8 or 16) and a pair of outputs for the summed mix. The rationale behind these boxes, which are all the rage at the moment, is that they provide some of the imperfections and distortion that charachterise analogue ciruits in an otherwise digital system. Typically people describe the differences as 'warmth' 'depth' 'width' 'punch' etc.

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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Jenni » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:42 am

Thanks for the reply Jack.
Its interesting that over 100 people have checked this thread out but made no comment.
Am I and my boyfriend the only Hip Hop fans on SOS?

SSL and Waves target advertising at the home recording market.
Sos print an interview with a highly successful Hip Hop/Rap Engineer/Producer, a mag that receives advertising from said companies.
How on earth can a 90k plus (4000g+ I think) console and its dynamics Eq ect be faithfully replicated by a firewire box (Duende) costing around £500 to £700.
Then there is Waves with their Native version of the 4000 series plug in suite.
Then there is the summing mixer from SSL available to buy with a range of devices to expand its use in a rack format.
To get to this point we have to spend a fair old bit of cash.
I sometimes think not only is there the music industry but there is the music tech industry selling us fairy tales praying on our dreams of getting a hit but....
You need a such a such to get ''that'' sound.
Young Guru might move in circles that give him access to a ''real'' SSL console sound with the ability to over load the buss but the rest of us are sold second rate products that never quiet deliver because lets face it they are not real, or am I being a tad sceptical?
It all feels a bit ''oh you have to use an Avlon pre amp to get that sound and stem out on an SSL console!

Call it a rant if you like but IM sick of being sold at by music technology companies and the magazines that pretend not to represent them.
I will not buy SOS anymore as yo have clearly been pimped out by the advertisers.
For example looking back at my SOS collection, do KORG own an office in your building?
Or can anyone buy the back cover!
Why not let the best demo Artiste have the back cover to expose the home recording market you claim to represent.
I genuinely feel you are a bunch of genuine people at SOS and hope you prove my conspiracy theories to be just that.
Why on earth do we give a toss about Jz its clearly a UK dominant magazine so lets see some Uk folks being represented.
The kind of people who keep your business going.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby dmills » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:18 am

Thing is, when everything else is right, then yea, there is gear that is preferred for particular purposes, and it tends to get a reputation for how it sounds...

Theatre sound, we all worship at the altar of Cadac.
Rap, likes its Avalon and a U87 thank you.
Hiphop, SSL.
Live touring rock, Midas heritage....

You don't need any of these to produce a hit, but if you are working at the level where you get to choose the kit, then you will often tend to find that there are genre specific preferences.

I have watched multi platinum selling engineers (back when that meant something) pull together a stunning mix on a Mackie, it would have been easier on something better but it is about the chops not the gear in the first instance.
Of course if you have the chops AND the budget then that is the ideal situation and you would very likely use the shiny toys (Because the work would go faster, and be easier).

There are far more important things then shiny toys from SSL/RN/whoever, but if you are working commercially and there is an expectation that certain kit will be available then it may well make business sense to take out the loan and buy whatever shiny you are being asked for three times a week.

Now a lot of the big desk manufacturers are reacting to the demise of the big desk market by offering smaller, cheaper products (and by licensing software companies to produce emulations) and these may or may not have the same qualities, and critically may or may not actually be useful given the far smaller environment they are being used in, but all you can do is offer the product.

So, some big knob in the hiphop world (not somewhere I run) likes his SSL G+, good for him! Personally, I would be more interested in mic placement, drum choice and tuning and the like then what desk he uses, but each to his own.

As to advertisers buying space near where their products are discussed, well, yea, you have a mag with an article on X, any advertising sales type worth hiring is going to be on the phone to the manufacturer of X about a full colour next page spread!

I don't really buy into the SSL Mythos, but then I also don't really buy into the analogue summing thing either, but if using either makes you happy that will probably improve your mixing enough to make it worth the money, and more power to you.

Regards, Dan.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Jenni » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:37 am

Thanks Dan.
I am probably talking total shite and it would'nt be the 1st or last time but I don't claim to be perfect.
My point is I would like a real SSL sound not a fake.
It would be nice to hear from people who do have some of these cheaper spin offs and what they really think especially if they have actually used a full size SSL console in the 1st place and thought hmm Ill ave some of that.
I guess youtube will reveal the real monty though.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby forumuser695516 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:13 am

Thats a bit harsh Jenni? (Re: the advertising) Even though I do see where you are coming from. But advertising is what makes the world go around these days. I don't like it either, but I begrudgingly accept it.
SoS is really no different to any other magazine in this respect.
TV, radio, internet, magazines, the Kings cross station escalator tunnel heading down to the circle line.. They are all jam packed full of adds trying to get you to part with your money.

At the end of the day, you may well like artist X's music, and perhaps you aspire to make something in a similar style yourself. But it most definitely does not mean that you need the very same gear to do it.

It really doesn't matter if its SSL or Mackie. Avalon or Neve. Prawn cocktail or salt & vinegar. Its personal preference and what jams your donut that is most important.

Some talent and little more than a cruddy cassette based porta studio will get you further than zero talent and an (acoustically treated) warehouse packed to the rafters with the best kit the sultan of Brunei's money could buy.

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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Jenni » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:40 am

It may be a bit harsh Paul but why accept it?
If its the worlds best music recording magazine why not show the recording aspect off more instead of Korg.
Its been Korg for years now on the back cover.
Its just my opinion and like I said myself IM probably talking shite but its my opinion all the same.
I don't subscribe to the opinion of cheap gear and talent.
A cheap reverb sounds awful for example.
Just like cheap desk.
Talent will only get you so far before the gear lets you down.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby dmills » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:19 am

But even a cheap modern verb sounds about a million times better then what we had even a few years ago.

Hell, plenty of free convolution processors out there, just take one, add a decent IR (There are collections of impulses on the web) and guess what? You have a verb as good as the impulse you used!

Yea shiny gear makes it about a million times easier, mixing live on a large rig with a large stage and good monitors really IS easier then mixing down the dog and duck with the band stuffed into the corner for example, but if the talent has the chops it will show in both situations.

The fact is that once you get away from the real bottom of the line stuff (and even that is not as horrible as it once was), the improvements are mostly incremental on a baseline that is actually really pretty bloody good.

The places that the money really shows are IMHO, the room (Where most home studios fall down badly), the mics and the speakers, everything else is pretty much just icing on the cake.

There is nothing magic about SSL or anyone else's audio circuitry, the real difference between say SSL and Mackie is that the SSL does not design to the same price point, and so trades things off differently, but it is not magic, it is just bog standard electronic engineering.

Attention to detail costs, quality switches and pots cost (Ohh boy do they cost!), and another half dozen iterations during prototyping costs, that is why the SSL analogue stuff is expensive.

Now consider something like a Duende, the software is probably a straight transplant from whatever their latest digital mixer uses, there are no controls, no AD or DA, no analogue section at all in fact, and DSP prices drop 30% year on year.... You can have the DSP box manufactured in the far east (not saying they do, I dont know) without giving much away (a Tigersharc or TMS whatever in a box with a USB interface is just not very interesting), and as I say the code is probably ported from an existing product. The customer gets the sound but critically not the workflow.

Regards, Dan.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby forumuser695516 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:00 am

Actually, truth be told, im not sure I do accept it. I subconsciously turn a blind eye to the advertising, so I don't even notice the Korg thing. I don't think i've ever bought anything from Korg either in 20 odd years of messing about with music tech
My personal beef with adverts is more the indirect effect. In that if a product is bloody awful, the reviewer can't say as much because then the company could pull their advertising, and away goes a chunk of income for the magazine. Unbiased reviews? Sure, if its a product from a non advertising company.
I'll eat my own underwear and post the video on Youtube if SoS gives a bad review to any korg product in next months edition

As for cheap gear & talent etc.. People have made hits on cruddy cassette based porta studio's. Or more recently, inexpensive software like Reason. The point is, you do not need an SSL. And an SSL does not make the difference between having a world wide top 10 hit, and a sales flop.
Same with reverbs. A cheap reverb may well sound naff (relatively speaking). But Joe public listening to the track on his ipod really can't tell the difference anyway. A cheap reverb isn't going to make the track a miserable failure.

Besides, much of the finer qualities of costlier fancypants gear is regularly well and truly crapped on by gob loads of compression and limiting thats applied at every possible opportunity these days. Not least by mastering engineers and again in radio/tv broadcast. So great recording gear, or naff recording gear, by the time the track emerges from the sphincter of the recording process that is mastering, it often all sounds like the same dull lifeless tosh anyway. But again, if the song is good, Joe public is going to lap it up regardless.

Cheers! Paul
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby DePulse » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:44 am

I remember a time back in the 80s when the SSL sound (Stock Atkin and Waterman among others) was not something positive.

Tracking (and mixing) should preferably be done on a Neve not an SSL, but SSL was often using for mixing due to the automation capabilities.

Since when did this change and the SSL sound became something desirable?
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby James Perrett » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:59 am

DePulse wrote:
Since when did this change and the SSL sound became something desirable?

Since people started making hit records on them. Wannabes always think it is down to the gear. So called engineers who wouldn't know one end of a transistor from the other hit lucky and think that it was down to the gear they used. The companies take these so called engineers and get them to endorse the product in exchange for a cheap (or free) deal.

There is a great deal of hype around the unimportant parts of the recording chain - especially in magazines and ads that are aimed at the US market.

Cheers

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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby steve355 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:43 am


Full size SSL Desks are expensive enough to only get to be used by highly experienced, talented audio engineers. Perhaps that's why they sound so good.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Pete Kaine » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:47 am

~Paul wrote:
SoS is really no different to any other magazine in this respect.
TV, radio, internet, magazines, the Kings cross station escalator tunnel heading down to the circle line.. They are all jam packed full of adds trying to get you to part with your money.

Indeed. If the wasn't adverstising you'd be paying £20+ for your copy of SOS each month. It makes sense for the magazine to sell space on the back of articals that relate to the product in question. This isn't so much the hardsell from the mag to you, but to the company in question. The articals normally get written the same time as the first round of adverts are confirmed which would be the reoccuring advertisers who you see every month and take up most the adverts (well in the cases i've delt with) and then the extra left over space is sometimes targeted at relevent advitisers who may not always publish. This isn't a problem for the end user through, but it does generate more income for the mags. If you don't like the ad's then don't read them!

As far as KORG goes on the back page. The back page is the most viewed advertising slot in any mag (followed by page 2 & 3) and thus costs the most. If KORG wishs to lock the backpage with a 12 month deal or whatever at the price the mag is looking for then good for them. If it keeps my monthly read at a decent price i'm all for it. Doesn't mean i'm going to buy any of the gear through.

~Paul wrote:
My personal beef with adverts is more the indirect effect. In that if a product is bloody awful, the reviewer can't say as much because then the company could pull their advertising, and away goes a chunk of income for the magazine. Unbiased reviews? Sure, if its a product from a non advertising company.
I'll eat my own underwear and post the video on Youtube if SoS gives a bad review to any korg product in next months edition

Hmmm.. but all mags are there to at least break even and pay thier staff. Even a positive review can attack the negitive in a way that it isn't offensive to the advertiser. As such you should always read between the lines of any review and always compare multiple sources for the full picture!

~Paul wrote:
But again, if the song is good, Joe public is going to lap it up regardless.

And in many cases even if it isn't but you can throw your own money at advertising they may lap it up anyway

steve355 wrote:
Full size SSL Desks are expensive enough to only get to be used by highly experienced, talented audio engineers. Perhaps that's why they sound so good.

Quoted for truth!

~Paul wrote:
Its personal preference and what jams your donut that is most important.

In my case it's custard.

Cheers.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:07 pm

Jenni wrote:Its interesting that over 100 people have checked this thread out but made no comment.
Am I and my boyfriend the only Hip Hop fans on SOS?


I doubt it. I suspect it's simply that the majority of people don't feel they have sufficient experience of the products you're talking about to make a useful contribution -- but they are still interested in reading the discussion. Nothing wrong in that.

SSL and Waves target advertising at the home recording market.


Probably because the project studio market is hundreds of times larger than the high end studio market.

Sos print an interview with a highly successful Hip Hop/Rap Engineer/Producer, a mag that receives advertising from said companies.


Would you rather we didn't publish such interesting interviews, or didn't accept advertising to support the printing costs? Without advertising the mag wouldn't exist, of course, so I'm struggling to see your point here...

How on earth can a 90k plus (4000g+ I think) console and its dynamics Eq ect be faithfully replicated by a firewire box (Duende) costing around £500 to £700.


It depends what you mean by 'faithfully replicated'. Clearly, the Duende option doesn't involve a ton of metalwork and all the switches, knobs and faders of the 4K console, so there's a big saving to start with

The idea behind units like the Duende (and many other plug-in emulations of classic hardware) is that if you sample (for convolutional processors) or model the hardware accurately enough, passing a sound through the digital emulation will come out sounding very close to passing the same sound through the real hardware. And by and large most of these emulations are now coming extremely close to that ideal goal.

The big advantage for the consumer is that they can get very close to the sound of the hardware for little money because software and DSP is relatively cheap, and it takes up little space. The advantage for the manufacturers is that they can maintain their profile and increase their market share by building on more convenient versions of their past glories.

I sometimes think not only is there the music industry but there is the music tech industry selling us fairy tales praying on our dreams of getting a hit but....


As I said earlier, there are those at the top who have a way of working and believe that is a core part of their sound. It ain't necesarily so. They would still have hits if they mixed on a Neve or an Audient or a Mackie -- it's the material that sells, not the gear it's made on.

...but the rest of us are sold second rate products that never quiet deliver because lets face it they are not real, or am I being a tad sceptical?


Just a tad, perhaps. Have you tried using these products? Do your tracking and mixing skills and experience match those of the people making these records on high end gear? There are more than a few variables at work here.

It all feels a bit ''oh you have to use an Avlon pre amp to get that sound and stem out on an SSL console!


That's the kind of response I see over at Gearslutz all the time, and it's hogwash. When people don't have the skills or experience to get the sound they want, it's easier to blame the equipment than themselves, and hence promote the idea that you have to have certain hardware to achieve a certain result. While there may be some truth in that when it comes to the final 2% of the sound of a track, there are many, many more important things to get right first.

I will not buy SOS anymore as yo have clearly been pimped out by the advertisers.


Really? Damn! No one told me...

Seriously, there is almost no connection between the editorial side of the company and the advertising side. I think it's fair to say that SOS' editorial independence is still legendary in the industry. I wouldn't be writing for the company were it any other way.

For example looking back at my SOS collection, do KORG own an office in your building?


Not unless it's through that secret door that's always locked at the back of the ground floor with the 'Keep Out: Korg Employees Only' sign in big red letters ...

Or can anyone buy the back cover!


Anyone can buy the back cover... but, because it is such a prominent and effective place to advertise, when a company secures it they tend to book it for a long term series. Don't see a problem with that myself. The same is true of many other favoured advertising locations within the magazine.

Why not let the best demo Artiste have the back cover to expose the home recording market you claim to represent.


Sure, if they want to pay the same price that we can get for it from one of the big manufacturers.

I genuinely feel you are a bunch of genuine people at SOS and hope you prove my conspiracy theories to be just that.


We are, and I hope I have. SOS is unique in this market in being a privately owned publishing company with a 25 year reputation for being the most honest, reliable and best magazine of its kind on the market. All we publish are magazines about music recording (SOS) and performance (Performing Musician) -- and all of the editorial staff are musicians themselves. We have no shareholders to pay, no mega-corporation to support where the suits are more involved in the bottom line than the product. We publish the magazines that we want to read. It's that simple -- and thank fully tens of thousands of people all over the world
like to read it too.

Why on earth do we give a toss about Jz its clearly a UK dominant magazine so lets see some Uk folks being represented.


I think the interest is because he is an 'international recording artist' The last time I looked you could buy his music in HMV or amazon.co.uk -- so he is of general interest to the UK market as much as anywhere else. And SOS is not just a UK magazine. Our international edition (which carries exactly the same content) is the fastest growing music technology title in America, and the magazine is undoubtedly the largest and most popular of its kind in the english speaking world.

We do regularly cover UK artists and bands too, of course, and if you have any specific suggestions for artists you'd like to see covered in that section of the mag please drop us an email.

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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:26 pm

~Paul wrote:My personal beef with adverts is more the indirect effect. In that if a product is bloody awful, the reviewer can't say as much because then the company could pull their advertising


Er, sorry. This just isn't true of SOS. I'm sure it goes on in many other magazines, but definitely not SOS -- it is something that we pride ourselves on very highly.

I have had published in the pages of SOS several scathing (but entirely fair and justified) reviews over the last 12 years, and in at least three cases I can think of the products have been withdrawn from the market. In most cases the advertisers concerned did make loud noises about pulling their ads in a fit of pique, but provided the review is fair and accurate, and the product was working as intended, there isn't much of an argument that can be levied against publishing a bad review...

And most advertisers don't end up pulling their ads because they recognise that SOS is the most powerful marketing vehicle open to them precisely because the reviews are unbiased, accurate and fair. It would be cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

The honest, warts and all, accurate reviews are the reason people buy and, more importantly, trust the reviews in SOS, and that's why they end up sometimes buying the advertising company's (better) products.

Okay, so there aren't that many bad reviews published in SOS, but why would there be? For a start, there aren't that many bad products out there these days, and with limited space available in the magazine why would we waste that space telling people what they shouldn't buy, when they want to know what they should buy.

Moreover, the editorial staff and key reviewers are obviously in close professional contact with most manufacturers, and as a result we are often consulted about products while they are still in the early stages of design and development -- so we often help to steer and shape products long before the public ever get to see them -- and in that way help eradicate major design flaws or loopy ideas long before reviews are even thought about.

I'll eat my own underwear and post the video on Youtube if SoS gives a bad review to any korg product in next months edition


Thankfully your taste buds are safe. I don't think we have any Korg products in for review at the moment... Although it might be worth pointing out that I have been a little sceptical in print of Korg's adoption of the DSD recording format in some of their products and, more importantly, of the claims made for that technology. Just as an example to show how close you could be to eating your shorts!

But are there any bad Korg products on the market at the moment? I can't think of any.

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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby johnny h » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:31 pm

I think Hugh really destroyed the conspiracy theory there!

I'll add a few points.

I can kind of see why sound on sound reviews are considered a little "positive" for all occasions, but you can always read between the lines. There are a lot of people who save up for this equipment and you can see why they don't want to bluntly state "this is total rubbish" and upset readers who have already invested in it. At the same time, the tone of their reviews gives you a very good indication as to whether they think its a good product or whether there are clearly better alternatives.

Saying that, there have been some quite damning (but fair) reviews - notably the Hartman Neuron. The company didn't last too many years after that! Also I remember reading one of a big Waldorf synth which was unfinished and riddled with bugs. Curiously they went bankrupt a few years later too!

The "benefits" of analogue summing as opposed to in the box mixes are very regularly discussed here and in the magazine. If the advertisers were in charge you would expect them to come down fully on the high price outboard analogue side, but this is not the case. SoS often state digital summing is "perfect" and analogue summing is unnecessary.

And you know, SoS is already £5 now! How much would it be without the adverts? I don't even want to think about it!
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby steve355 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:31 pm

Pete Kaine wrote:
steve355 wrote:
Full size SSL Desks are expensive enough to only get to be used by highly experienced, talented audio engineers. Perhaps that's why they sound so good.


Quoted for truth!



So here's an idea for the mag.... let a few relative newbie-type amateurs loose on some super hi-end SSL or Neve kit and see what kind of result they come up with. Compare & contrast this with a crack team of seasoned pros (perhaps Hugh, Mike Senior etc or perhaps some industry people) using Cubase LE or Reaper with only the included plugins, using budget mics & interfaces (Behringer? ). Give both teams the same session to record.

On the subject of the ads, it is difficult and sometimes the "and so I found myself reaching for my credit card" final sentence of the reviews seem silly and patronising. But, in their defence, many people find themselves struggling through the treacle of a techical review and thinking "FFS just tell me if you would buy this F*ing interface or not". And SOS usually indirectly says yes, depends on your requirements, audition it, or (default) probably not. Which I suppose is what people often really want to know.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby narcoman » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:45 pm

Jenni wrote:It may be a bit harsh Paul but why accept it?
If its the worlds best music recording magazine why not show the recording aspect off more instead of Korg.
Its been Korg for years now on the back cover.
Its just my opinion and like I said myself IM probably talking shite but its my opinion all the same.
I don't subscribe to the opinion of cheap gear and talent.
A cheap reverb sounds awful for example.
Just like cheap desk.
Talent will only get you so far before the gear lets you down.


Talent is overrated. Experience is your key asset. As many know I've sold a lot of product over the years. Some of it was done on really budget gear - gear that I didn't like!! Heck some of my work sold millions and just sounds darn terrible too!! I do agree that it is easier to get stuff sounding good in a good environment and with appropriate gear.

BUT

Notice the word "appropriate". Some of the textures you may want in the sonics of a mix are only attainable with certain piece of gear. Or sometimes only easily and effortlessly achieved that way. The corollary is that some textures and sonics are only available on cheap gear! There are times when I dig out the occasional bit of cheap nonsense precisely because it does a specific thing. There are times when I've chosen plugins over hardware.

Most commonly - it's the good gear that gets selected.... but that does not mean that the only route to a good product is expensive gear. the point I'm making is that decent gear does have many advantages over its budget cousins - but there are also many many professional level things to be done on much budget gear. You may not be abel to do what you desired on certain pieces of kit - but you WILL be able to do something useful and good, although different.

I would say that the first 20million units of product sold with my name on were done on gear totaling in cost less than £10k. Half of that being an O2R and Mackie desk with Midiverbs and cheap yamaha delays.... loathesome though it all was.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby EnlightenedHand » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:14 pm

I don't think that we need to see a bunch of bad reviews in SOS. But I do notice that when something is less than a serious, world class quality product it gets a pretty soft criticism from SOS. In general I love the magazine. But I do wish it had more of a distinction between telling people that something is actually pretty good compared to anything else in the market at whatever price and telling people when something is pretty good but not really a serious production tool.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby The Korff » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:03 pm

Just for info, the SSL Duende plug-ins are algorithms ported from their C-series digital desks, so in that sense they do give you the 'genuine' SSL sound.

Cheers!

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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby nhirst » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:13 pm

johnny h wrote:I can kind of see why sound on sound reviews are considered a little "positive" for all occasions, but you can always read between the lines. There are a lot of people who save up for this equipment and you can see why they don't want to bluntly state "this is total rubbish" and upset readers who have already invested in it. At the same time, the tone of their reviews gives you a very good indication as to whether they think its a good product or whether there are clearly better alternatives.

I'd always assumed the generally positive nature of the reviews was because most products people make these days are pretty good.

Like cars. It's a truism that it's hard to buy a bad car these days. As in, one that's got technical issues, or doesn't work. And so Clarkson has to try pretty hard to slam something - usually because it's boring. The result is actually not that helpful: rants about cars that are boring because they aren't as fast or impractical as a Lamborghini.

As far as I can tell it's quite hard to buy bad music gear these days. Sure, there's stuff that's just ok, or stuff that's a bit boring. But a basic Behringer mixer will be clean, quiet and reliable. So there's not that much need for bad reviews.

As an aside. I work in advertising. And believe me, many people I work with wish it were easier to influence editorial. But even when you've carved out an ad deal that involves editorial coverage of some kind (which does happen, though possibly not in Sound On Sound), it's almost impossible to get editors to "behave" themselves and take direction from the ad sales department. That's just not how the hierarchies work in publishing.

So I'm pretty confident as a reader that SOS's editorial purity is beyond reproach.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Steve Hill » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:34 pm

steve355 wrote:So here's an idea for the mag.... let a few relative newbie-type amateurs loose on some super hi-end SSL or Neve kit and see what kind of result they come up with. Compare & contrast this with a crack team of seasoned pros (perhaps Hugh, Mike Senior etc or perhaps some industry people) using Cubase LE or Reaper with only the included plugins, using budget mics & interfaces (Behringer? ). Give both teams the same session to record.

Hardly fair, I suspect. The guys with 20 years experience will crucify the newbies who, dare I say, might not be wholly familiar with running a large format console and might freeze up when faced with the prospect.

And they might also be pretty handy at getting the best possible out of Cubase.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby nhirst » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:55 pm

Steve Hill wrote:
steve355 wrote:So here's an idea for the mag.... let a few relative newbie-type amateurs loose on some super hi-end SSL or Neve kit and see what kind of result they come up with. Compare & contrast this with a crack team of seasoned pros (perhaps Hugh, Mike Senior etc or perhaps some industry people) using Cubase LE or Reaper with only the included plugins, using budget mics & interfaces (Behringer? ). Give both teams the same session to record.

Hardly fair, I suspect. The guys with 20 years experience will crucify the newbies who, dare I say, might not be wholly familiar with running a large format console and might freeze up when faced with the prospect.

And they might also be pretty handy at getting the best possible out of Cubase.

actually i'd pay to read that.

though i reckon you're right, steve. you'd get technically ok results from the pros and a poorly-mixed disaster from the newbies.

still, might be funny reading about someone like me trying to figure out how the hell to operate £250,000 worth of desk.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby Jenni » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:08 pm

I very much doubt people would freez up Steve if anything they would enjoy the opportunity.

On Korg reviews, the Micro Sampler has just been reviewed which I have been looking at very closely as I rather fancy one.
But I can only assume a bad review didn't happen because by sheer miracle SOS got the only unit that don't suffer from the bugs experienced by many users in the real world who don't get paid by Korg.
Or did that one slip past you Hugh?
Good job someone reads the mag.
Anything else you would like me to inform you about this months magazine or have you been on holiday and catching up?
Lol.
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby RegressiveRock » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:09 pm

In a marketplace where any number of magazines publish reviews that practically never give less than 8/10 - whatever that means - to products unles the company is small enough to genuinely need them (and by that I mean one man and a goatshed), I actually find it moderately rich that people have the gas to take a tilt of one of the few oases of common sense left.

Barring SoS and reader-contributor led magazines like TapeOp (with the benefits and pitfalls of 'my new toy' syndrome taken into account), most of the rest are more like the user-rated product catalogues you can find in a zillion plus shops online except that someone else with a spine made of candyfloss is doing the rating.

I don't necessarily agree with everything that is written in SoS when I get to try some of the kit they review. Then again, on the one or two occassions I've been lucky enough to bump into SoS team members, they were not walking on water. Hence, I would imagine that with the usual variances in taste and style that we all share, I wouldn't expect that level of absolute accord. However, the reviews are decent, you can see that plenty of offline and online research into any issues surrounding the product has been done and overall you get a feel if you should be seeking to try a piece of kit, if you are anticipating a need in that area.

I'm sure Hugh is trying to be nice and you want to raise a genuine debate, but if you have not noticed just how high a standard SoS sets in an often depressingly lame marketplace, then I'd suggest eye test.

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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby steve355 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:10 pm

Steve Hill wrote:
Hardly fair, I suspect. The guys with 20 years experience will crucify the newbies who, dare I say, might not be wholly familiar with running a large format console and might freeze up when faced with the prospect.

And they might also be pretty handy at getting the best possible out of Cubase.

Oh yeah? I've only got about 4 yrs amateur experience - about an hour a day on average. I reckon I've used enough UAD Neve plugins to know what I'm doing. Bring it on!


Aside: FWIW I used to be involved in aircraft where the amateur light aircraft pilot would be placed in a simulator in his fantasy scenario of having to take over the controls of an airliner and land it in the event of incapacitation of the professional pilots... needless to say you wouldn't want be on that plane!
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby . . . Delete This User . . . » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:47 pm

i'd pay to watch the "amateurs vs Pro's " match....




seriously.... very few people have ever stood in front of a high channel count large format console....

a LOT fewer actually understand what every knob and button does, and why, and how to apply that....


and as for "i've used enough UAD plugs"

when you're standing in a large control room, in front of a 72 (or bigger) frame Neve , or SSL , I'll be impressed if , you can FIND the bits you're familiar with in under 5-10 minutes, never mind actually manage to usefully route signal to them...
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Re: Young Guru in this Months SOS Mag

Postby ken long » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:51 pm

For a fair match, you'd need to give the newbies a crash course on the console. But seriously though, as long as you know what every button and knob in one strip does, then its just a question of understanding the routing matrices. Its all signal flow. Although an SSL is far more intuitive than a Neve IMO. Not used API.

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