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The question on every ones mind..well kind of

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The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby vinyl_junkie » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:44 pm

I know this has been asked a million times but what is stopping companies like Roland re-issuing simple analogue synths like the SH-101?
I mean surely this can be done cost effectively right?
Cheap thru-hole design and some IC's, plastic case etc etc
This is not exactly cutting edge stuff
I'm not sure what IC's are no longer made by Roland but surely they can make them again because I honestly think the market is there.

I mean look at the Moog Voyager Old Skool, CV/Gate and no MIDI on a new synth in 2009 although the Moog is a more boutique high end synth.

I'd like to hear what other people think about this..I know it wont ever happen but should make for an interesting read never the less
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby forumuser695516 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:27 am

I expect it would be too expensive to do these days.
A lot of the old transistors that synths like the 101 used have not been made for 20 odd years (I found this out when building my 303 clone). So you'd have to start producing those again for a start.
Then theres manufacturing.. Back then, im sure it was more labour intensive. Today factories are far more automated, and are likely not very well equipped to deal with older style components anymore. So you'd need more 'human' labour, and quite a bit of retooling to produce such a synth.
Through hole maybe simple.. But surface mount technology works out so much cheaper when a single chip can do the job of many thousands of transistors. Plus it can be fitted in seconds by one machine, rather than multiple human hands.

Hence why the few fully analogue synths you can still buy today tend to be pretty expensive. And the cheaper analogues tend to be riddled with various compromises in order to get the cost down.

Just my 2 osc's worth!

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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby The Elf » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:38 am

Like it or not, stuff like the SH201 *is* Roland's attempts to do what you're suggesting - it's just that nobody seems to 'get it'.
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby Kolakube » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:28 am

Wow, in our Email conversations I am so influential you start threads over them :]

Me and martin (vinyl junkie) were just saying how roland are so out of touch these days. The last thing I feel they ever did of any worth was the JP8000/8080.

After that they have done little but (scuse me) bastadize the great Roland brands that were legendary such as the SH and the Juno's. I bet the Jupiters have a few sleepless nights as there probs next.

Back on track for the thread, If Moog can do it as Martin rightfully states Roland are missing out. Even limited runs of 303s and 101s would clean up.

I remember Rolands lack of listening to what customers actually wanted caused such a stir in the mid 90s Roland themselves allowed competitors such as Novation and Quasimidi to be born. Then after seeing how popular the Bassstation was (and others) quickly got their act together and made the JP some years later.

Lets not forget also, it was musicians abusing the great 303/101 etc that made them any use. They were actually a total flop on release. Roland never made any money out of these classics! All the money generated has been from the second hand market.
Granted the Juno's and Jupiters were very successful but half of rolands success is down to a form of dance music that didnt really come to age until more of these synths had been discontinued. You'd think they would want some cash and actually re make these beauties. I mean the 303/101/808/909/106/60 have all been at the top of most dance musicians kit list for decades, its a license to print money for Roalnd!

I doubt Roland will ever be in touch with there customers except fro the odd fluke here and there.

All of this is blasphemous for me to admit as I love the classic Roalnd gear but really, Since the JP they have produced bot all worth mentioning and that was 10 years ago! Before the JP they had produced nowt for around 5 years or more. Thinking D50 and JD800?? So in 15 years or more they have done very little IMO.

Just my two pennith
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby Stoney » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:16 pm

Totally agree. Similar with classic samplers...

Why can't the likes of Akai and Emu reproduce their MPC60s/SP1200s? They could make them smaller and more portable, with more memory and features, but keeping the classic crunchy sounds everyone loves. I'm sure they'd sell - I know I'd buy them!
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby vinyl_junkie » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:28 pm

Stoney wrote:Totally agree. Similar with classic samplers...

Why can't the likes of Akai and Emu reproduce their MPC60s/SP1200s? They could make them smaller and more portable, with more memory and features, but keeping the classic crunchy sounds everyone loves. I'm sure they'd sell - I know I'd buy them!

As far as I know EMU only stopped production of the SP-1200 cos they ran out of the analogue SSM filter chips.
It had a long production run and remained un-changed pretty much from 87 to 1998!
Want a cheap MPC-60 buy a S-950 lol
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby Kolakube » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:34 pm

Suerly an S950 cannot match the other dimensions you keep telling me about, such as how simple they are too use
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby flo » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:38 pm

kolakube wrote:

Me and martin (vinyl junkie) were just saying how roland are so out of touch these days. The last thing I feel they ever did of any worth was the JP8000/8080.

V-Synth??????????????????

(oh, and good to have you back, by the way ;-)
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby vinyl_junkie » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:43 pm

kolakube wrote:Suerly an S950 cannot match the other dimensions you keep telling me about, such as how simple they are too use


Sound wise I meant.
But don't forget the MPC-60 is only easy by 1980's standards if you compare it to newer MPC's like the 2k and even 3k
Mind you I think the 950 is easy...
The S950 is mainly all used for sampling drums by most people and the metallic time stretch...if you have a big record collection and have a good ear GET ONE
but as much as I love the MPC's EMU always did take a bit of a poo on Akai...I mean the MPC-60 Mickey didn't even have a filter...even the S-950 had a non resonant low-pass

If you want to listen to the sound of the MPC-60 DJ Shadow "endtroducing" the whole album was done on a MPC-60, ADAT and a SL-1200mk2
That's as far as that machine will ever go
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby vinyl_junkie » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:46 pm

flo wrote:
kolakube wrote:

Me and martin (vinyl junkie) were just saying how roland are so out of touch these days. The last thing I feel they ever did of any worth was the JP8000/8080.

V-Synth??????????????????

(oh, and good to have you back, by the way ;-)

I did mention that one to him in a email lol And the new V-Synth is pretty cool
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby narcoman » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:40 pm

....which is precisely what Dave Smith thought - how come he's struggling then ?

Despite what you think - there is a market of "desire" for them - but i doubt very much whether there is a market of cash at all.
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby vinyl_junkie » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:43 pm

narcoman wrote:....which is precisely what Dave Smith thought - how come he's struggling then ?

Despite what you think - there is a market of "desire" for them - but i doubt very much whether there is a market of cash at all.


Because the new DSI's suck lol Actually that's a bit harsh but I didn't like the Mo'Pho I mean a Waldorf Pulse sounds better (Ok are we comparing apples to oranges? but the envelopes I didn't like and I found the sound rather bland)
Also the user interface sucks, why own hardware if you have to use software to edit it...makes no scene to me
VST's sound damn good as they are and better than the MoPho' I mean Arturia do a MINI MOOG that sounds damn close to a Mini...what would I rather have?? hmm
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby Kolakube » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:00 pm

I dunno, there has been great demand for the classic roland gear now for decades, literally. These things arent a trend. I think people would snap them up. Also they could make 1000 at a time and see how it goes. Or at least let some other company have a go under license.

I would pay top dollar for mint brand new boxed and guaranteed classic roland gear.

Dave smith has never had the pull in my world as that of Roland but thats just from my corner of the world.
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby vinyl_junkie » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:03 pm

kolakube wrote:
Dave smith has never had the pull in my world as that of Roland but thats just from my corner of the world.

Kinda same here but I'm thankful he invented MIDI lol
Also I love the sound of the Prophet 5 and Prophet 2000 sampler, also the prophet copys like the Nord Leads and AN1X's of the world..
But more desirable than a Prophet was always ARP to me, god they sound amazing..ARP, Moog, Roland, Waldorf now we are talking..
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby Kolakube » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:05 pm

I must say the prophet 5 was a favorite of mine. But it isnt as appealing to this day as the old roland classics.
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby forumuser695516 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:15 pm

kolakube wrote:
I would pay top dollar for mint brand new boxed and guaranteed classic roland gear.


And it would be top dollar. As I mentioned in my earlier post, many many components have not been made for at least 20 years.
To justify remanufacturing the key components alone would take a very serious investment on Rolands part. So 1000 synths even at a grand a piece wouldn't even nearly cover the costs involved.
They would have to know in advance that they could sell thousands and thousands of them.
Why would anyone pay so much for something so simple, when for a fraction of the cost a decent bit of software will run circles around it?
Roland compromise with their 'similar' offerings, with the analogue controls, but digital innards. It's cost effective to produce, and Joe Blogs will be plenty happy with it. The hard core 303/101/whatever fanatics might not be so keen. But those people simply are not numerous enough for Roland to justify remaking the things in their original form.

By & large Roland would appear to be happier providing studio's with their meat & two veg type products. IE, gear with a fairly broad appeal that they know they can sell by the container load. Niche products don't really seem to be their thing. At least not these days..

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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby ken long » Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:30 pm

vinyl_junkie wrote:
As far as I know EMU only stopped production of the SP-1200 cos they ran out of the analogue SSM filter chips.
It had a long production run and remained un-changed pretty much from 87 to 1998!
Want a cheap MPC-60 buy a S-950 lol

Not only Martin. You have to look at the history of Emu and where they went after those amazing products (I have an SP1200 btw ). They went into the computer market and interfaces just to survive. Frankly, I'm surprised they are still around. The 12, 1200, and Emax are all 12-Bit! Its appropriate to talk about this in the vintage gear forum because its VINTAGE GEAR! But around the end of the production of the SP1200 (c. 1998), the market was flooded with cheaper, alternative samplers that could be computer controlled. Mainly by the likes of Akai and their 16-Bit Neu MPC models (not the Linn 3K). Users wanted more fidelity without considering the distinct sounds or workflows of the legacy gear and when that convenience spread to DAWs and computer programming, people were quick to sell off their vintage "obsolete" (har!) gear and buy a top of the range computer to make music... and burn CDs... and create sleeves in Illustrator etc. or what have you.

SSM's are still available. The only reason SPs sell for so much was the limited run. That's a pretty good legacy and even if they were to re-release them (a la Moog Voyager / Lil Phatty), it wouldn't be comparable to the originals.

Now. I am about to incur the wrath of Zukan when I say:

I hope Roger finally finishes the Linn Drum II so we can all put these tanks to rest!

Yours.

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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby vinyl_junkie » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:07 am

You are so lucky owning a SP1200, I would love one!
I think every one is waiting for the Linn Drum II but I wonder if it will ever be released and because people expect so much/different things of it what if it doesn't live up to what every one expects it to be.
If I was Roger I would of kept quiet about it then there is no real pressure to meet dead lines which are always broken cos they are never met as goal posts change.
Never the less I'm eagerly awaiting it..if it will ever happen and wish him the best of luck with it!
All the MPC die hards who own 3k's and 60's are already saving for it probs lol
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby narcoman » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:01 am

kolakube wrote:I must say the prophet 5 was a favorite of mine. But it isnt as appealing to this day as the old roland classics.

I've NEVER heard anyone put any bit of Roland gear above some of Mr Smiths classics
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby narcoman » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:08 am

vinyl_junkie wrote:
VST's sound damn good as they are and better than the MoPho' I mean Arturia do a MINI MOOG that sounds damn close to a Mini...what would I rather have?? hmm

Love DSI stuff. Got a couple of Moog modern pieces here - Love em. Love the DSI stuff (got Mopho, got Prophet 8 - also got an older Prophet 5 ... getting Poly Evolver)...

Quite like the plugins - but ALL of them sound thin ..... still very usable but suffer from EXACTLY the same issues that plugin EQs do against real ones. Totally useable - but harder to get the good stuff out. Mind you - the Monomachine is a fab digital synth - so it's not s/w I dont like !!

LOVE the Mopho - like a mad hybrid between a pocket watch and a Prophet. Pair it up with a Sherman - ooooooch!!

Got 60's, 106s, Jupiters and JP8000. For me - they're all good but not super.... I guess I'm not a Roland guy !!!
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby Kolakube » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:25 am

Hi Narcoman, some good points.

However if your not a Roland guy im going to guess your not a creator of dance music? Id honestly say anyone in HipHop (not me) House (all styles) Trance (all styles) Hardcore, Techno, Drum and Bass and on, would always make room for another SH-101.

If it were not for these few cheap and simple analogue machines almost all of the dance music genre would not be the same today. The 303 single handedly created Acid, the JP8000 (OK not an analogue) single handedly created Dutch Trance with its supersaw alone.

Dont get my wrong, if you offered me your prophets 5 and 08 Id snap your hand off as these are two synths that get much kudos from myself, especially the 5. But they were never immediately popular with dance musicians.

I know your saying the pricers if Roland were to re release would be huge, well Id settle for replicas that were virtual analogue (given no option of analogues) if they sold for a few hundred quid each. As long as Roland didnt bastardize them. I just want the same thing, IE a replica perhaps with an optional MIDI interface.

Enjoying this debate/thread
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby Dave B » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:51 am

narcoman wrote:Got a couple of Moog modern pieces here - Love em. Love the DSI stuff (got Mopho, got Prophet 8 - also got an older Prophet 5 ... getting Poly Evolver)...

Got 60's, 106s, Jupiters and JP8000. For me - they're all good but not super.... I guess I'm not a Roland guy !!!

Dave ... yes you Dave .... I am the voice in your head .... relax .... stay calm .... pick up the cricket bat ...... get in the car ..... go to Narcoman's place .... close your eyes and let me take over ...... we can have lots of lovely kit ..... hmmmm - Prophets! ...... hmmmm Jupiters ...... you want this really don't you .... we can be happy ....... synth heaven ...... we may need to wipe down some spilled fluids .... don't concentrate too hard on the redness .... did I mention Poly Evolver .... happy place ..... thinking happy thoughts ....
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby BigRedX » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:06 am

Stoney wrote:Totally agree. Similar with classic samplers...

Why can't the likes of Akai and Emu reproduce their MPC60s/SP1200s? They could make them smaller and more portable, with more memory and features, but keeping the classic crunchy sounds everyone loves. I'm sure they'd sell - I know I'd buy them!

Th "classic crunchy sounds" are a product of old crunchy circuitry. Duplicating that either means modelling which won't please purists, or duplicating the original in which case you won't get the benefits of size reduction etc.
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby The Elf » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:08 am

I could never get really excited about the Prophet 5 either, but I do absolutely love my Pro-One. There was something about the P5 that just left me cold - I honestly don't know why.

Same goes for the venerable CS80 to be honest, but that may be down to the 'never going to be able play a Wakeman line on this' heavy weighted keys.

But the first time I played a Jupiter I just knew I had to have one. I never got the the JP8 I craved, but the MKS-80s are a good compromise. The JP-8000/8080 are vastly undervalued in the current market - I'd grab another in an instant. No, not real analogue, but once you're playing with one you forget that in an instant.
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby Kolakube » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:52 am

I totally agree re the JP Elf.

I bought one new in 1998 (I think) and it cost me around a grand and a half. Back then it was superb. Had to sell it unfortunatlty a year after I got it.

Got another one last week second hand in great condition. Comparing it to the Juno 106 I had 6 months ago Id honestly say it sounds just as fat and wooley when it needs too. I honestly think the JP is 'the' best VA synth ever made even to this day. You can keep your virus. Also I had an Alesis Andromeda and again loved my trusty JP 8080 (at the time) more.

One of the most underrated synths of all time is the JP-80X0 imho
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby forumuser695516 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:44 pm

kolakube wrote:Id settle for replicas that were virtual analogue (given no option of analogues) if they sold for a few hundred quid each.

In many respects, Roland have been beaten at their own game by other companies.. I don't think there have been many (any?) 101 clones. But there has certainly been several 303 type clones. Some are very good, and fit in with what you described. Except they don't have the Roland badge on them.
One of the better digital clones is the Miami Acidlab Bassline 2 (www.acidlab.de ). Its pretty authentic right down to the sequencer and would set you back around £450. My (analogue) x0xb0x is a component accurate 303 clone and cost me about £400. But I had to build that myself (Its bloody great though! )
Theres a few other 303 clone type products too (I have 2 or 3 more!) But as you can see, Roland have largely given up trying to compete with the very monster they themselves created. Because smaller companies have already muscled in on the action to provide their own solutions. However, they are all produced in limited numbers. Except for the software clones of course.

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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby Kolakube » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:53 pm

I am most interested in the xoxbox. You can get them ready made for around £350 on Ebay every now and then.

Why oh why doesnt someone make a xoxbox style 808??? or 909?? or 101 etc etc and on.
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby ken long » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:57 pm

I used to own a Novation Drum Station. To all intents and purposes, a great 808 and 909 in a 1u rack. Also had DIN Sync IIRC. No sequencer though but you can pick them up for peanuts now.

That Miami Bassline sounds very authentic as does their 808 box.

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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby vinyl_junkie » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:22 pm

ken long wrote:I used to own a Novation Drum Station. To all intents and purposes, a great 808 and 909 in a 1u rack. Also had DIN Sync IIRC. No sequencer though but you can pick them up for peanuts now.

That Miami Bassline sounds very authentic as does their 808 box.

ken
I used to have a Drum Station too, the 909 was pretty good but didn't think much of the 808 kit on there...always thought the Jomox boxes sounded fater but the Drum Station is still a great unit I think
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Re: The question on every ones mind..well kind of

Postby forumuser695516 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:24 pm

kolakube wrote:I am most interested in the xoxbox. You can get them ready made for around £350 on Ebay every now and then.

Why oh why doesnt someone make a xoxbox style 808??? or 909?? or 101 etc etc and on.

x0xb0x's are brilliant. Probably the best 303 clone of the lot. Plus they have midi, cv, usb, as well as din sync. They are also a bit easier/faster to program than the real deal. So in many respects, the x0xb0x is better! There is a multitude of well documented modifications you can do to them also.
However, they do need to be built with care if you want it to be 100% authentic sounding. eBay ones will be a bit of a gamble in that department.

As for a modern 808.. Did you have a look at the acidlab site I linked to? www.acidlab.de They make one.
Failing that, all the Jomox drum machines are essentially a slightly modernised take on the 808/909 theme. They are certainly worth checking out

Im not aware of any hardware 101 clones though.

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