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Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

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Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby afterworks » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:39 am

To cut along story short the next main project I'm working on has taking twist. Originally I was getting a freebee. A weeks worth of tracking at a place with an Audient through some Motu 24 I/O's. I'd be hiring in some pre's, API 3124's and some Neve 1073's, a few mics to compliment what was available, Neumann U47Fet, KM 184's and D12.

Turns out the hire company only has 1 API. So whilst on the hunt for atleast a 2nd API, I came across a studio who've offered me their studio for a week for the same amount it'd cost me for a weeks hire of the above pre's and mics.

The studio has some tasty gear, Raindirk channel strips, a load of API and Neve and a fine selection of mics. Also a AMEK / Neve BC3 desk. From what Ive head on the grapevine the live rooms sound good to. All sounds fine.

The way its set up...theres a Digi Pro Control, HD3 and 192' into Pro Tools. Theres also the Apogee ADx16 and then the RME Fireface 800 for Logic.

From what I can gather the monitoring is controlled through the Pro Control, meaning I'd have to use the 192's.

Cant say I'm a massive fan of 192's though, and I work in Logic. But if i track using the RME, I'll have to use Logic for monitor control. I'm not sure its such a good idea to monitor with the Amek. I imagine it's not as transparent as the Audient (which I love).

Problem is, Ive never used the Apogee stuff so I'm not sure whether it's worth the hassle of dealing with the monitoring through Logic.

I could use the Apogee in Pro Tools then send it all the tracks over to Logic later BUT I'll be using 20 mics on the kit alone.

Basically, do I use the 192's 24 I/O and have a better monitor set up at the cost of the convertors. OR use Logic the RME and Apogee etc etc and suffer the monitoring.

To be honest my brains a bit fried and I think I might be being silly and missing something!

If only I could move the Audient to the other studio :frown:
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby afterworks » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:18 am

Although may have answered my own question...

While the RME AD is good..the pre's arent so.

I should just use the ADx16 with the 192's in Pro Tools and just the 192's for things like side room reverb mics etc.

Maybe I should just go to bed and give my head a rest!
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby paul101 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:56 am

afterworks wrote:


Maybe I should just go to bed and give my head a rest!

Indeed, probably for the best...... :D
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby Jack Ruston » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:34 am

I think that:

You're going to need an easy way to communicate with proper talkback and monitoring. Either use the Audient main section or renta monitor controller for the week.

The Audient pres are extremely good. I've done everything from acoustic stuff to heavy rock records with those and they work well. They're not coloured like 1073's or compressed like api's but you don't need to worry too much about them.

Re the converters: the 192 is a very good box for tracking. It's less hyped than the apogee which I personally prefer. If the studio is set up to track to pt then just do that. Fly everything into logic later.

Ultimately these choices are relatively secondary. The important thing is which studio has the best room, and which setup makes it easier for you to engineer and communicate. The exact pres and converters (considering that you have a pile of good quality options) make less of a difference. Naturally, stick the coloured pres on the important stuff if that's what you prefer (I would) but don't lose sleep. After all the drum heads, kit, tuning etc makes about a kabillion times more difference.

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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby Jack Ruston » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:38 am

Sorry...the Audient is in the OTHER room. Did you edit your post or am I going mad. :)

The pro control monitoring section is actually horrible. I complained about it to digi when I had mine and they modded it but it was still horrible. I'd definitely rent something (avocet?) rather than use that.

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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby afterworks » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:49 am

Yeah the Audient is in a different studio, and yeah I love the Audient, the pre's are great and it's such an easy desk to work with...but yeah in a different place.

From what I'm told, by people I trust, the the Pro Tools place without the Audient has the sounding better rooms, and is full of the pres and mics I'd want.

Have just done a load of pre production with the band and done some demos through the Audient. Have chosen the drum heads, guitar strings etc I prefer so the pre's are more or less the last thing in the chain. Fortunately I'm blessed with a talented drummer, with a particular ear timing and tuning! And he's not one to say 'that'll do'!

Got a few things to sort out like guitar amps but have got a Framus and a few others at hand to use. The barritone guitar is the one that needs a bit more work. He wants to go through a bass amp, so trying to find the right match for that. I think I'll probably end up using a bass and guitar amp. I'm back in the studio today to do some reamping, experiment with what works best. I should have a better idea by sometime later on tonight.

Slightly off topic but while double micing the toms didnt make HUGE difference, it's made enough of a difference to be worth the effort. Just seems to add a bit more of what I'm after. Also setting up a natural reverb mic is awesome. I'm tempted to get a few samples of just snare hits for the natural verb though.

Sorry Jack, do you mean you prefer the 192's? Not used a Pro Control before either so its usefull to know its not a the best solution either.

Cheers
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby Jack Ruston » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:20 pm

afterworks wrote:Yeah the Audient is in a different studio, and yeah I love the Audient, the pre's are great and it's such an easy desk to work with...but yeah in a different place.

Ok. Shame. Nevermind

afterworks wrote:From what I'm told, by people I trust, the the Pro Tools place without the Audient has the sounding better rooms, and is full of the pres and mics I'd want.

That's going to be the one to go for then

afterworks wrote:Got a few things to sort out like guitar amps but have got a Framus and a few others at hand to use. The barritone guitar is the one that needs a bit more work. He wants to go through a bass amp, so trying to find the right match for that. I think I'll probably end up using a bass and guitar amp. I'm back in the studio today to do some reamping, experiment with what works best. I should have a better idea by sometime later on tonight.

Hmm...I think you're right...try both. I'd maybe just take a split of it at the time and then as you say, you can reamp it.

afterworks wrote:Slightly off topic but while double micing the toms didnt make HUGE difference, it's made enough of a difference to be worth the effort. Just seems to add a bit more of what I'm after.

I think it makes a difference. It's more resonant with the under mics added and you dont have to use them. It does rely on having the toms really tuned well or you can get some horrible ugly overtones. The only thing for me is that while some people like to sum them and print together, I never do that. Sometimes the bottom mic can complicate things a little too much especially if there are snares in the tom decay...you then have two extra 'spill' snares complicating things. I always like to be able to go back to one when mixing if it's not working for me.

afterworks wrote:Also setting up a natural reverb mic is awesome. I'm tempted to get a few samples of just snare hits for the natural verb though.

I would sample every snare tuning at three velocities and get at least ten hits of each. It's just so useful in the mix when you want to push the snare ambience but the drummer's cracking the cymbals and the room mics are getting washy. You can just paste some clean snare ambience in there. Also it's nice to build up your own collection of samples.

afterworks wrote:Sorry Jack, do you mean you prefer the 192's? Not used a Pro Control before either so its usefull to know its not a the best solution either.

Well, I use Lynx at mine but not because I didn't like the 192. I found it to be a perfectly good professional converter. I just wanted more IO in less space for my mobile rig and the Aurora 16 gives me 32 in and out in 1u. The apogees are about the only coverter I can think of off the top of my head that really impose themselves a lot. It's almost like they've got a 'tape saturation' setting. They're hyped at the top and bottom. I'd hapily use any of these boxes because at the end of the day they're all competent and any differences you compensate for in other ways. Ultimately the converter doesn't change YOUR aesthetic approach. If it sounds a certain way you will react to that and compensate. As long as it's not actually bad. And none of those boxes are bad.

The pro control is useful in some ways, but the monitoring section, as I mentioned, is awful. I'm sure the little Amek has a good monitoring section no?

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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby Jack Ruston » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:22 pm

...Oh and just to reiterate...I use 192's on almost every drum tracking session I ever do, because that's what studios always have...and I've never been anything but happy with them.

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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby . . . Delete This User . . . » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:05 pm

the amek has some nice pre's and useful eq, and a perfectly acceptable monitoring solution.

you could just track through that, straight in to protools... then take i away as consolidated WAV/AIFF tracks and mix at leisure.


obviously you can substitute outboard and run thru the line input instead

it ought, if i recall, to have direct outs on every channel , so you could monitor the whole thing live thru the desk , and use pt just as a tape machine, and ignore the procontrol altogether...

or any combination of the above and previous suggestions.

but imho , you should have just gone to steve.
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby afterworks » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:43 pm

Cheers, that all seems fine.

Steve's place has always been the first choice, he's got everything and more, but due to the bands main funding falling through it wasnt affordable...which is why we were going to go into Salford for free where they have the Audient. They could only afford to hire some extra mics and outboard.

But after reading idris post, realising I only need dry hire, a phone call to Steve, a phone call to borrow a caravan and all my problems are sorted

Proof of why this forum is good.
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby Steve Hill » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:00 pm

We've spoken. And I've got a few ideas for amping your baritone guitar with what we have in house!

I'll shut up now lest I fall foul of some rules and need to moderate myself.
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby Jack Ruston » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:10 pm

If you can make it work at Steve's you should do that. I've never been anything but happy with the stuff I've recorded there.

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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby afterworks » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:07 am

Well I dont want to cause any problems by talking about it so do tell me if I do...

but..

Yeah we can easily make it work with whats available at the studio ;)

I did some re amping last night to try a few things out. Had a Framus and Wawrick Tubepath 10.1 heads through an Orange 2x12 cab.

The normal guitar was fine, the Framus worked. But then I doubt we'll have much issue with that anyway.

The barritone, hmm...the bass amp works with it in certain places. The guitar amp is better in others. I think with the right mic choice and amp eq they'll work well together fort he heavy parts.

My initial idea for the baritone is...to use the Mesa amp slaved with the Framus 4x12 cab we'll be bringing (its basically a Mesa cab) and then for the bass amp, an Ampeg with 4x10.

Normal guitar can use either the Tiny Terror or Framus head with the Orange 4x12 cab at the studio.

I'm thinking that panning the baritone left and right (with separate takes) with normal guitar in the middle, so theres no tonal imbalance? I think this should help keep the bass and kick in tact to,

I'll post up 2 different type track tomorrow once I've played a bit more for some context.

Jack, Steve or anyone else please feel free to chip in on ideas on how to make it fit.

Thanks.
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby Jack Ruston » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:26 am

I think you should get a double track of both the normal guitar and the baritone. Because you might find that one or other works better up the middle. You may need to take bottom end out of the baritone anyway because of it clashing with the bass. I don't have enough experience with those to be definitive about it (if one could be) so I'd keep the options open.

Exactly what sort of stuff do they do?
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby afterworks » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:10 am

http://www.mediafire.com/?mzmmzj0mymn

http://www.mediafire.com/?vczndtkmzna


If get a chance to listen, Ive uploaded 2 tracks. A heavy one and lighter one.

Otherwise its quite hard to desrcibe, I'd say the main influences are Oceansize and Tool type stuff.
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby . . . Delete This User . . . » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:11 am

try the baritone using a guitar amp, through a bass cab with 10 inch speakers... a 4x10 ought to work well...

Narcoman has a very nice marshal 4x10 , that would probably sound great... IF he's not using it..... he might hire it , and he's only down the road from Steve by about 10 miles or something...
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby Steve Hill » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:55 pm

I was speculating about our 1961 Gretsch 2x12 BassAmp combo, 70 watts into a pair of original Jensens. Can add an Ashdown deep 2x10 plus tweeter to the mix...
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Re: Track through Digi 192's or Apogee ADX 16 and RME Fireface...BUT...

Postby . . . Delete This User . . . » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:47 pm

that might work.... the thing with 10's is they really help the mid range definition.... and a baritone generally needs a tightly controlled , but effectively chunky ,low end... and mid range definition, to stop it getting messy a 4x10 cab tends to do that naturally, the low end is a function of the combined air shifting ability... (a bit like a 4x12 does far more than a 2x12) , and the mid a function of the smaller driver with typically tighter control...


using the 2x12 and 2x10 together can also work... indeed it's what i do most of the time when i can;t go and nick Narco;s 4x10... but you need to pay careful attention to their physical relationships as well as that of the Mic's

(phase issues relating both to the relative positions of the cabs and their bleed into each other... as well as phase between the mic positions)

for some years i've been wondering why guitar amp manufacturers stick with 12's , when arguably, 10's can do a better job... obviously not for everything perhaps... but the majority certainly.... If i ever went gigging again (on a larger scale than a combo will do) then a 4x10 cab would probably be my weapon of choice...
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