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Changing gear...

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Changing gear...

Postby BigAl » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:06 pm

I'm going to be buying a computer soon for recording.
I would be interested in comments regarding PC v Mac and what sound interface I could consider.
I record anywhere between 8 and 16 tracks usually, mostly real instruments and vocals. I am planning on using some sort of computer based drum machine as well as samples for rhythm.
What sort of spec will do the job?
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Jack Ruston » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:10 pm

Get the biggest baddest machine you can afford*. Why? Well while most machines can easily record 8-16 tracks of audio, the moment you start messing about with the latest greatest drum kits, pianos, string libraries etc the whole thing has a habit of spectacularly grinding to a halt. And the second you have a machine that runs them easily, the new version with yet another level of 'realism' comes out and you can't run that.

*Within reason. Don't ever buy the top version of any computer because the premium for the fastest chip or the largest amount of ram is always disproportionate. The trick is to buy the second fastest of whatever it is.

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Re: Changing gear...

Postby BigAl » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:54 pm

Cheers Jack.
I'm fine with PC specs (work in IT) and have my eye on a couple of machines.
I will probably not go down the laptop route as I'm getting a really high spec one for work which I could use for portable recording, but for my studio, I'll probably go down the desktop route.
How much RAM do these plug-ins actually use?

Isn't it funny how my old trusty AW4416 was invented nearly 20 years ago and it stills works well with 16 track recording.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby James Perrett » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:34 pm

For standard tasks there isn't really much between Mac and PC. The real difference becomes apparent when you need to do specialist tasks where there's possibly only one piece of software that will do what you want. Have a good think about what you want to do with your computer and try a few software demos to see what you get on with best.

Jack's advice to go somewhere just under the top of the range is good - it will probably halve the price for just a small drop in performance and possibly improve reliability too as you won't be debugging the latest technology.

If you want a decent reliable interface then take a look at the RME range. My personal preference is to have an audio interface with plenty of digital connections which allows me to use a choice of A/D's without changing my interface.

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Re: Changing gear...

Postby hollowsun » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:01 am

BigAl wrote:Isn't it funny how my old trusty AW4416 was invented nearly 20 years ago and it stills works well with 16 track recording.
Because that's what it was designed to do ... unlike a 'puter which, to snag your sig, is a jack of all trades and master of some!
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Dynamic Mike » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:20 am

I imagine most modern desktops will run 16 tracks plus effects comfortably. What you don't want though is 16 accumulated tracks of fan noise, go for the quietest. IT guys tend to mentally switch out fan noise like people who live on a main road do with traffic. After 29 years I can barely hear my wife...another couple of years & I reckon I'll be lip-reading.

And take a copy of DCP latency checker with you before you buy.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Skerrick » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:07 am

PC, for the love of god dont get a mac, you cant upgrade them yourself and theres more software and hardware options and flexibility for pcs.
honestly IMHO macs (although they ARE powerful machines in some respects) are a gimmick, youll realise this the first time you have to book an appointment take your computer to a 'genius' for him to tell you you need a new graphics card, when youve already come to the conclusion yourself via your own diagnostics but you need special permission to crack open the steel casing so as not to void your expensive ass extended warranty. iphones are great, ipads are great, but honestly, if you cant afford the top of the line apple product, any of their lower tiered products is gonna leave you unsatisfied and wanting more.
PC all the way, look at it like this: you cant run a Large Hadron Collider with a mac.
www.centrecom.com.au - i bought a custom desktop for $1100 and it beats the $4000 mac desktop version in leaps and bounds. 8gb DDR3 ram, quad core i5 3.2ghz, 2gb overclocked nvidia graphics card, 1tb HDD etc. custom desktops are the ONLY way haha good luck with your purchase!
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby hollowsun » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:09 am

Skerrick wrote:PC, for the love of god dont get a mac, you cant upgrade them yourself and theres more software and hardware options and flexibility for pcs.
What utter cock!

My Mac is upgraded to the hilt, done by myself with non-Mac components. Cost less than your PC and goes like sh!t off a chrome plated, vaseline smeared shovel.

Skerrick wrote:but you need special permission to crack open the steel casing so as not to void your expensive ass extended warranty
More cock.

There may be more s/w for PCs but a lot of it is shite and I wouldn't pollute my disk drive with it.

I am no Mac evangelist - au contraire ... they are just tools - but your post appears like you copied and pasted it from some old PC-head thread from the early 90s!

Please don't perpetuate this ancient and total arsewash.

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Family 'puter is a Mac Mini with some USB drives hanging off it and cheapo wireless keyboard/mouse and 23" 1920x1200 monitor (forget the make off hand - something I snagged off the interwebs for next to nothing).
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Skerrick » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:59 am

hollowsun wrote:
Skerrick wrote:PC, for the love of god dont get a mac, you cant upgrade them yourself and theres more software and hardware options and flexibility for pcs.
What utter cock!

My Mac is upgraded to the hilt, done by myself with non-Mac components. Cost less than your PC and goes like sh!t off a chrome plated, vaseline smeared shovel.

Skerrick wrote:but you need special permission to crack open the steel casing so as not to void your expensive ass extended warranty
More cock.

There may be more s/w for PCs but a lot of it is shite and I wouldn't pollute my disk drive with it.

I am no Mac evangelist - au contraire ... they are just tools - but your post appears like you copied and pasted it from some old PC-head thread from the early 90s!

Please don't perpetuate this ancient and total arsewash.

----

MacPro Tower - 2009 2 x 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel CPU, 16GB RAM, 4.5TB of storage, 2TB Time Machine drive, 2 x 2560x1440 monitors, Firewire/USB hubs on PCIe cards, audio/MIDI IO, Matias keyboard, Logitech wireless mouse, Creative USB webcam for Skyping and more s/w than I know what to do with!

Family 'puter is a Mac Mini with some USB drives hanging off it and cheapo wireless keyboard/mouse and 23" 1920x1200 monitor (forget the make off hand - something I snagged off the interwebs for next to nothing).


WOW, how rude. im not gonna throw insults at you, im just gonna state a fact or two.
okay, so apart from someone whos obviously a mad techie like you yourself seem to be, the guy posting the questions to this forum is obviously not, otherwise he wouldnt need to ask.
cracking open your macbook voids the warranty. FACT.
if youre not a techie, you need that warranty.because your macbook WILL fail. if a pc fails, in most cases (pardon the pun) you just replace the part.
also, correct me if im wrong but pc parts are cheaper, MUCH cheaper, and universally usable across a wider range of units and brands, whereas you want a well priced pc component for a mac, and you cant use it. amirite? is it not all specialist parts and ribbon cable connectors? i could be wrong but even so, pc is cheaper and more reliable. and the whole stigma of macintosh is basing an industry around its own products, notice how they invented firewire, they dont accept standard VGA screen cables, everything needs a pc-to-mac adapter and its always an expensive and annoyingly necessary option.
and yeah, i didnt copy and paste anything from the 90's. LOL.
i got an asus laptop with a 350GB hdd, quad core i5 3.2ghz, 4gb ddr3 ram, and 1.5gb nvidia dedicated GX graphics card custom built for $1000. my pc is even better and i got it custom for $1100. the mac equivalent of either of these, is well over $2500 at the cheapest. i got 2 monster computers for less than the price of the most ideal macbook.
PLUS plugins wise, there are wayyy more vst's and such that have been designed almost exclusively for pc, granted, there are pros and cons of both systems, i just find that the pros of a pc far outweigh the pros of a mac.
all i was saying was that from personal experience youd be better off going with a custom pc. but thats just my opinion, it most certainly isnt 'cock'
peace.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Skerrick » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:19 am

Jack Ruston wrote:
*Within reason. Don't ever buy the top version of any computer because the premium for the fastest chip or the largest amount of ram is always disproportionate. The trick is to buy the second fastest of whatever it is.

J

i strongly diasgree man, (unless youre referring to a PC) - if this fella is going with a mac, hes gonna want top of the line or hes wasting his time, thats the problem with macbooks and mac desktops. 'the only good one is the best one' and although theyre awesesome, theyre effing expensive, like i said before, i got 2 pimped out custom pc's (one laptop one desktop) for less than the price of a pimped out mac.

trust me if youre getting any macbook that isnt top of the line, youre gonna regret it something fierce later on down the line. by all means get a real good one, but dont waste your money on anything less than the best with macs, with pcs you can chop and change cheap/good parts really easily, so you can do a piece by piece upgrade as time goes by, rather than waiting with a crappy outdated (eventually) machine while you try and save for a new one..
again, thats just my advice but its worked for me.
good luck again my man.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Richie Royale » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:17 am

I see this has descended into a mac vs pc 'argument'.

My Mac Pro is simple to upgrade, pull the lever at the back, pop off the side, install components. All my previous Macs were the same. Never been to a Mac shop, never bought a new Mac, never needed a 'genius' (what a stupid term for a shop assistant).

I'm pretty sure a Pentium 1 PC could run 16 tracks like the Tascam, provided you didn't ask it to do much else, so the comment about PCs isn't quite right either. It is just that we now expect PCs to be both tape recorder, rack of effects and mixer.

I'm pretty sure most laptops are not simple to open and upgrade so it really isn't worth discussing. Based on the PC forum here though I understand that some laptops just aren't up to the job, so that is something worth researching should you be considering a laptop.

As for the OP I think Jack has the correct view, get the best you can afford and then try not to stuff it full of every free plug in under the sun! Slowly try new things and get used to them, disregard those which add no functionality. Most programs work on both platforms, but there will be some software which is platform exclusive so do your research before you buy and make sure that it is VST compatible on the Mac as I have found some software is AU only, but I use Cubase.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Kwackman » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:45 am

BigAl wrote:I'm going to be buying a computer soon for recording.
I would be interested in comments regarding PC v Mac and what sound interface I could consider.

The recording software is the important decision IMHO.

You should first look at which software would would prefer to use.
There are quite a few DAWs out there which do the same basic job, but their workflows are different.
Try to find out which one works best for you - that decision might decide which computer platform you should look at.
eg If Logic floats your boat, you need a mac, if Sonar, you'll be on a PC.

If it's Cubase or another crossplatform program, only then do you have to suffer the Mac v PC battles!
And as you probably know from these forums, Mac v PC debates attract too many "closed mind open keyboard" experts....
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Chevytraveller » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:01 am

Skerrick wrote:
cracking open your macbook voids the warranty. FACT.


Sorry dude, but you are completely wrong and writing the word "Fact" in capitals doesn't make you any less wrong.
I have upgraded all of my Mac laptops over the years(now on my 9th) without invalidating any warranties.
I have upgraded using cheaper components sourced from places like Crucial and my current 17"MBP is sporting a very nice V4 256Gb SSD and a 750Gb 7200 RPM drive. I have only ever had one issue with a Mac(in over 20 years of using them) and it was when it got yanked off a table. Even then I got it going again by reseating everything

If you like the tinkering and changing of many components in your PC and are prepared too faff about with drivers to get them to work without issue or latency then that's great for you and by all means continue.
But many musicians have gone the Mac route precisely to avoid all that so they can concentrate on making music. This route has been successful for many (including myself)

platform wars on posts like this are both tedious and unnecessary there are merits and issues with both platforms. If you find something works for you, then great but if you start throwing ill informed and incorrect mud around about other people's choices then you are inviting people to be rude about your words and your choices

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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Strangy » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:11 am

Getting slightly off topic but don't some of the new macbooks have the RAM factory soldered to the board?!

Anyway, back to the OP’s question: mostly real instruments, 8-16 tracks... fortunately that’s a pretty straightforward task for any modern computer. My 5 year old Q6600 / 4G RAM machine is still competent… as was the PC before it!

If you only plan to do simple mixes, said spec can run as many SSL Duende channel strips / bus compressors / Lexicon reverbs as I want, totally stable. Add simple one shot sample playback with something light like Short Circuit, and again I can add as many instances as I like, without problems…

However... Start running a few virtual instruments or some larger sample banks (e.g. Kontakt with Abbey Road Drums or Alicia Keys Piano etc) and things get very unstable very quickly! Likewise if you want to be able to run the latest ‘character’ plugs on each channel at mix down, e.g. Slate VCC / Tape emus CPU/RAM can max out in no time... In which case re-read Jack’s advice. That’s what I plan to do when I upgrade later this year!

Most DAWs will do what you require with ease so as above post use what suits your workflow. Most DAWs can be demo’d these days. Reaper is very cheap, very adequate and comes with very small resource footprint so I’d give that a try, has many new fans round here.

Possibly the most important factor for multi-track recording on a computer (esp coming from a stable hardware recording solution background) will be finding a stable low-latency sound card. I previously struggled with a firewire interface and could not recommend though many others use Firewire without problems. But that’s another topic for another thread really:)

Another important thing mentioned above = noise. Factor in some budget to make the computer as quiet as possible (or else chuck it in another room!)
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby hollowsun » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:07 pm

Skerrick wrote:obviously a mad techie like you yourself seem to be

Nope. Thick as a brick when it comes to all this! I can assemble a modular synth but wouldn't know a SATA from a satsuma!

A bit of common sense, though, and you can customise your Mac pretty extensively and you don't have to use Apple peripherals or the 'Genius Bar'. The only bit of Apple I have here is the actual 'puter and that was a two year old warrantied refurb bought more cheaply than your Asus lappie. Memory, drives, monitors, keyboard, mouse, webcam, etc. - all 3rd party and bought relatively cheaply (whole thing less than your PC). The only bit of Apple that the family 'puter has is the Mac Mini - the rest is all 3rd party ... no, sorry, I tell a lie - I treated my daughter to a Mac keyboard because she liked the short travel keys ... prior to that though, bog standard USB keyboard.

Rude? Just putting the record straight albeit maybe in a forthright manner for which I don't apologise ... you weren't exactly subtle in your approach ("for the love of god dont get a mac").

I have no truck with the Mac vs PC flame wars but when somebody publishes arrant nonsense that is just wrong, well... !

On the subject of which...

Skerrick wrote:if youre not a techie, you need that warranty.because your macbook WILL fail

Wrong.

Skerrick wrote:is it not all specialist parts and ribbon cable connectors?

Nope. Some specialist parts but not "all".

Skerrick wrote:pc is cheaper and more reliable

Not necessarily and no.

Skerrick wrote:notice how they invented firewire

You say that as if it's a bad thing! It's a fine interface and I wouldn't be without it.

Skerrick wrote:they dont accept standard VGA screen cables

They did until recently and even so, a standard £8 off-the-shelf convertor cable from Maplins will sort you out (I don't know about Thunderbolt though but I gather convertors for that are becoming more readily available).

Skerrick wrote:everything needs a pc-to-mac adapter

No it doesn't.

Skerrick wrote:and its always an expensive and annoyingly necessary option.

No it isn't.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Dynamic Mike » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:17 pm

BigAl wrote:I will probably not go down the laptop route as I'm getting a really high spec one for work which I could use for portable recording, but for my studio, I'll probably go down the desktop route

I suspect the answer to the PC v Mac argument ends here. Get whatever you'll be getting from work, because not all recording software is cross platform. Personally I'd look at Carillon, Scan, Rain etc (search SOS mags) & let them do the thinking for you.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Jack Ruston » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:15 pm

Skerrick wrote:
Jack Ruston wrote:
*Within reason. Don't ever buy the top version of any computer because the premium for the fastest chip or the largest amount of ram is always disproportionate. The trick is to buy the second fastest of whatever it is.

J

i strongly diasgree man, (unless youre referring to a PC) - if this fella is going with a mac, hes gonna want top of the line or hes wasting his time, thats the problem with macbooks and mac desktops. 'the only good one is the best one' and although theyre awesesome, theyre effing expensive, like i said before, i got 2 pimped out custom pc's (one laptop one desktop) for less than the price of a pimped out mac.

trust me if youre getting any macbook that isnt top of the line, youre gonna regret it something fierce later on down the line. by all means get a real good one, but dont waste your money on anything less than the best with macs, with pcs you can chop and change cheap/good parts really easily, so you can do a piece by piece upgrade as time goes by, rather than waiting with a crappy outdated (eventually) machine while you try and save for a new one..
again, thats just my advice but its worked for me.
good luck again my man.

Well that's your experience and there's no reason why it's any less valid than anyone else's. But I'm running 2010 2.4gHz 8 Core Mac Pro with PT and I can't max that thing out. It's really really powerful. But it was very expensive in relation to what a similar spec PC would have cost. But it's very difficult for me to work with Pro Tools on a PC because I need to keep switching back and forth between commercial rooms and my mix room. Insane though it is, the whole hard drive format thing is STILL a spanner in those works.

I've got nothing against PCs. A mac is just a big PC after all. You can load Mac OS on to a PC of course.

J
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby G-Doubleyou » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:06 pm

Pick your software, get the proper platform to run it.

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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Skerrick » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:52 am

Richie Royale wrote:

I'm pretty sure most laptops are not simple to open and upgrade so it really isn't worth discussing. Based on the PC forum here though I understand that some laptops just aren't up to the job, so that is something worth researching should you be considering a laptop.


im pretty sure on the bottom of the laptop theres a separate panel that covers each component (ram, hdd, cpu, etc) which you can lift off to install the new respective part.
i wasnt arguing either man. both sides have clear benefits and the argument is gonna exist for as long as windows pc's and mac's continue to exist.
but i chose pc for the reasons listed plus a few more and im happy with my decision, as im sure you are too.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Skerrick » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:55 am

Jack Ruston wrote:
Skerrick wrote:
Jack Ruston wrote:
*Within reason. Don't ever buy the top version of any computer because the premium for the fastest chip or the largest amount of ram is always disproportionate. The trick is to buy the second fastest of whatever it is.

J

i strongly diasgree man, (unless youre referring to a PC) - if this fella is going with a mac, hes gonna want top of the line or hes wasting his time, thats the problem with macbooks and mac desktops. 'the only good one is the best one' and although theyre awesesome, theyre effing expensive, like i said before, i got 2 pimped out custom pc's (one laptop one desktop) for less than the price of a pimped out mac.

trust me if youre getting any macbook that isnt top of the line, youre gonna regret it something fierce later on down the line. by all means get a real good one, but dont waste your money on anything less than the best with macs, with pcs you can chop and change cheap/good parts really easily, so you can do a piece by piece upgrade as time goes by, rather than waiting with a crappy outdated (eventually) machine while you try and save for a new one..
again, thats just my advice but its worked for me.
good luck again my man.

Well that's your experience and there's no reason why it's any less valid than anyone else's. But I'm running 2010 2.4gHz 8 Core Mac Pro with PT and I can't max that thing out. It's really really powerful. But it was very expensive in relation to what a similar spec PC would have cost. But it's very difficult for me to work with Pro Tools on a PC because I need to keep switching back and forth between commercial rooms and my mix room. Insane though it is, the whole hard drive format thing is STILL a spanner in those works.

I've got nothing against PCs. A mac is just a big PC after all. You can load Mac OS on to a PC of course.

J

yeah man im just saying, i wouldnt buy the second best in a range of computers, if i was gonna save up for second best i might as well save up for the very best..
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Jack Ruston » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:03 am

Really? The fastest chips are always so expensive, and a couple of months later they're half the price. I think it's mad to be at the cutting edge with computers. Anyway, each to their own.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Richie Royale » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:28 am

Skerrick wrote:
im pretty sure on the bottom of the laptop theres a separate panel that covers each component (ram, hdd, cpu, etc) which you can lift off to install the new respective part.

Macbooks have this as well. Take out the battery and you have access to the RAM and HDD. YOu don't need to crack open the case for the basic stuff, but you would do to change the CPU or graphics card.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Strangy » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:56 am

Pretty sure that with the latest Mac book the RAM is soldered in place and cannot be swapped/upgraded. A space saving design feature by Apple from what I remember reading...

Not the end of the world but this sounds slightly annoying since every computer/Laptop I've owned has at some point benefitted from new RAM - be it a swapping a dodgy module or upgrading after 2/3 years.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Richie Royale » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:09 am

Only the Retinas I think, not 100% sure, but I think the normal MBP can still be upgraded. Not sure why they chose to go that route though.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Dave Rowles » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:06 pm

Only retinas are hard soldered. The "normal" macbook pros you can still switch out the RAM at the very least.

I'm running an 2011 i7 2.2GHz macbook pro 4GB Ram, and I haven't managed to peak it out yet, although I don't perhaps do as big a mixes as Jack. The time before this mac I got the second most powerful macbook you could get and that lasted 5-6 years without any tinkering.

Really, it's all about the software you want to use. I got a mac because I wanted to use Logic. I'd played with each DAW and Logic fitted me best, so I went mac. I also dislike windows as an OS so that was another plus point for me.

Try out software, then make a decision.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Richie Royale » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:14 pm

Dave Rowles wrote:I also dislike windows as an OS

This has always been the reason why I stayed with Mac when I switched from Windows 95 to OS9.

I've no idea if Windows 7 or 8 would make me switch back, but I've been using Macs for over 10 years now and don't feel the need to.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Skerrick » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:32 am

Richie Royale wrote:
Dave Rowles wrote:I also dislike windows as an OS

This has always been the reason why I stayed with Mac when I switched from Windows 95 to OS9.

I've no idea if Windows 7 or 8 would make me switch back, but I've been using Macs for over 10 years now and don't feel the need to.

LOLOLOLOLOL if windows 95 is the reason youve been using mac OS for the last 10 years, i can only suggest you go and try a pc out.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Richie Royale » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:17 am

I've no need to try another type of PC, the Mac does what I need. I've seen Windows 7 on my partner's laptop and there was nothing to tempt me. The fact that each time she turns it on there is some update was enough to put me off.
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Dave Rowles » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:27 pm

Skerrick wrote:
LOLOLOLOLOL if windows 95 is the reason youve been using mac OS for the last 10 years, i can only suggest you go and try a pc out.


Actually I loved windows 98, it was the following versions that killed it for me. Plus the seemingly endless performance tweaks and the need to re-install everything every 6 months to get the performance back seemed like too much of a time sink. I can only afford one computer so my computer needs to do everything.

My wife has a windows 7 PC, and I still dislike it. Played with windows 8 in PC world and couldn't get on with it at all. I'll stick with a mac.
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Dave Rowles
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Re: Changing gear...

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:02 pm

Richie Royale wrote:The fact that each time she turns it on there is some update was enough to put me off.


I was under the impression that OSX automatically checked for updates every week by default, too.

MS normally releases Windows OS updates once a month, although security updates are released promptly at any time.

Regardless, any operating system of the complexity of OSX or Win 7 (etc) is going to have bugs and security weaknesses, as well as needing regular updates to accommodate new products and systems. Updates are an inherent part of any and every developing OS.

Of course, since Macs operate with a very restricted set of hardware options and havn't yet attracted the hackers to the same extent as the PC environment bugs, security weaknesses and especially any compatibility issues may occur or be found less frequently.

Notwithstanding all of that, my PC updates itself regularly and without requiring my attention, and I've not had any problems with it in years. I can't even remember the last time it crashed or suffered a virus problem -- and I've seen PW's big Mac lock up considerably more often!

At the end of the day, Mac or PC -- it's just a computer designed to run software. The important thing is the software you use, not the machine it runs on. People have different preferences for the way the OS works, just as they do for the types of cars they drive or the places they shop for clothes.

The mac/PC arguments are pointless and futile, and usually infested with nonsense and ignorance on both sides. Either form of computer will do the job perfectly well if specified properly. Full stop!

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