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is this doable

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is this doable

Postby iceman » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:57 pm

hi guys just wondered if this was possible, ok i want to record my bands set the mixing desk at the venue doesnt have direct outs and im not really into taking our desk as its the size of a snooker table out to the venue lol, anyway the idea was ive got three ada8000's and a motu 24 i/o ok so what i wanted to do was come form the venues multicore into the respective ada8000`s from the ada8000`s into the motu 24 i/o and the direct from the 24 i/o into the venues mixing desk, we are really good friends with the venue owners/sound engineer so setting up all the gear wont be an issue basically we have free reign as to what we can do, i dont really want to have two lots of mics on the stage and could do without the expense of buying a mic splitter!! any thoughts/advice would be welcomed thanks guys!



just found THESE

would this be a solution maybe?
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Re: is this doable

Postby BJG145 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:16 pm

OK, so you're basically asking whether you can use some of these:

Image

...to double up a bunch of XLRs into a live desk, and this.

Image

...with a bunch of XLR/Jack adapters...? (I don't see where the ADA8000s come into it.)

Does the Motu 24 I/O have mic pres then, or are those line level?

iceman wrote:the mixing desk at the venue doesnt have direct outs


(This surprises me a bit; I thought pretty much any desk had sends on every channel.)
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Re: is this doable

Postby iceman » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:42 pm

hi :) the motu doesnt have mic pre's no its just line level with a +4 or -10 software setting so i wanted to use the ada8000`s for gain control im not sure how good the software mixer for the motu actually is, and yeh the desk is super old its a seck 18 8 2 we have tried using the 8 sub groups but its far to restricting for instance if the kit has a mic on every drum.
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Re: is this doable

Postby BJG145 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:04 pm

*edit*

(Oh, OK...hadn't realised the ADA8000 had analogue out...)
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Re: is this doable

Postby molecular » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:38 am

I would have thought that feeding your entire live mix through a software mixer in the motu and back out would not be ideal... Does the desk not have insert points, even if not direct outs, on every channel? There are two useful threads on the *ahem* ins and outs of using these to record multi-channel HERE and HERE
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Re: is this doable

Postby BJG145 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:12 am

^^^

Iceman's current plan is to split the signal from the stage using those Y-cables and send one half into the live desk, and the other half into a bunch of ADA8000s...which sounds kind of plausible. Maybe you could just get one to test. I don't know what people think of recording a divided signal though; doesn't exactly sound optimal, but perhaps you could get away with it.

...unless you can get all the individual channels back out of the Seck. The manual is here.

http://thesnowfields.com/manuals/seck_manual.pdf

(I'm guessing molecular is probably right about the insert points...)
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Re: is this doable

Postby molecular » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:14 pm

Yes sorry I think I misread some of that.

I googled an image of the seck and am pretty sure that it follows the pattern of the manual with an insert as the bottom left of the three jacks on each channel. I'd definitely go with the insert point option - even if just because those splitters you linked to will cost you £120-ish for 24...
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Re: is this doable

Postby iceman » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:20 pm

thanks guys! i had considered the insert point route the adapters for it seem as expensive as the splitter cables the other reason i wanted to go into the motu first was so as to avoid any issues with my friend doing front of house i.e. when he needs to alter something it effects what is being recorded, we did this at a small festival a few months ago but the desk was a digital presonus desk it had direct outs ona d sub we have had some great results back from it apart from when something has been altered it changed the levels of the recording on the whole tho the recordings are very usable and all the bands who took part are pleased with them, my friend doesnt have the money to get a different desk at the moment so we are just waying up any different ideas, i asked him last night and we can get in there with everything set up to have an experiment to see which way works best, thanks for all the info guys im off to do some research! :)
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Re: is this doable

Postby molecular » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:37 pm

The insert points will be before everything apart from the mic pre, so if you are having time for a decent sound check, there should be very minimal adjustment of these during the gig. Eqs/faders/aux etc won't affect what goes to the motu. Probably quite easily fixed with automation. Good luck anyway! But, yes - if you need to spend 4 or 5 quid each on splitter cables and another 4 or 5 quid each on xlr to jack adaptors, then you could have bought 16 of the 24 properly transformer isolated mic splitters for the same cash!
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Re: is this doable

Postby iceman » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:37 pm

thx for the info molecular, yeh i was looking at the proper splitters and thinking if we are going to do this should we actually bite the bullet and buy a proper splitter! defo food for thought and means i got to get saving some pennies lol
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Re: is this doable

Postby James Perrett » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:03 am

BJG145 wrote:I don't know what people think of recording a divided signal though; doesn't exactly sound optimal, but perhaps you could get away with it.

That's how it is normally done at a professional level - in fact the mics are often split 3 ways to the foh desk, monitor desk and recording desk. Just make sure that only one is supplying phantom power and that the others are happy to be fed phantom power. If you want to be really sure that things will work then transformer based splitters would be better. Orchid Electronics have some affordable splitters and I've also used the EMO splitters.
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Re: is this doable

Postby molecular » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:20 am

James Perrett wrote:
BJG145 wrote:I don't know what people think of recording a divided signal though; doesn't exactly sound optimal, but perhaps you could get away with it.

That's how it is normally done at a professional level - in fact the mics are often split 3 ways to the foh desk, monitor desk and recording desk. Just make sure that only one is supplying phantom power and that the others are happy to be fed phantom power. If you want to be really sure that things will work then transformer based splitters would be better. Orchid Electronics have some affordable splitters and I've also used the EMO splitters.

I was having an issue around this last week - the PA's stage box was a splitter and I was recording from the unused monitor-desk feeds. However I also wanted to run reaction mics straight into my recording desk, and phantom on the desk I was using was all channels or none. For the sake of safety, the PA team were happy for me to run the reaction mics through their system, which wasn't ideal and they ended up getting accidentally muted at points - but what is the risk with phantom? None of us knew for sure. Will that apply a potentially damaging 96v to the mics? and is that the case for transformer isolated splitters or just basic passive splitters...?
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Re: is this doable

Postby James Perrett » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 pm

molecular wrote:
I was having an issue around this last week - the PA's stage box was a splitter and I was recording from the unused monitor-desk feeds. However I also wanted to run reaction mics straight into my recording desk, and phantom on the desk I was using was all channels or none. For the sake of safety, the PA team were happy for me to run the reaction mics through their system, which wasn't ideal and they ended up getting accidentally muted at points - but what is the risk with phantom? None of us knew for sure. Will that apply a potentially damaging 96v to the mics? and is that the case for transformer isolated splitters or just basic passive splitters...?

If you send phantom power from 2 desks to a single mic you will still end up with 48V but the series resistance will be halved. Normally the phantom power supply will have a 6.8k resistor between the 48V line and the mic input pins which limits the current available so using 2 desks at once will reduce this to 3.4k ohms. This would only be a problem with mics that assume that the series resistor is always going to be 6.8k - I must admit that I've never really investigated this so I can't tell you whether any common models would give problems.
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Re: is this doable

Postby molecular » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:29 pm

Thanks James - I'll be keeping phantom off that desk if I need to use it again, but it's good to know it doesn't mean an immediate mic fry if it happens accidentally, especially when the mics are someone else's!
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