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Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

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Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Peter Conz Connelly » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:23 am

My respect level has hit rock bottom with this geezer!!! Here are some quotes from a recent SOS interview with Demacio 'Demo' Castellon, the git!!!

"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

"Of course it can cut the dynamics on some records, and you definitely get fatigue listening to records that loud for a long time. But it's what people want to hear."



Cheers,
Peter
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Freuman » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:29 pm

What an arse!

When i first read this the word I used was much stronger...

but even if he started it...why did everybody follow??!!

...still...
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby The Korff » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:32 pm

Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Parker Fly » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:33 pm

Korff wrote:Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...

As though splicing tape in the 60's wasn't?
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby The Korff » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:43 pm

I'm not saying it wasn't!

Just read the box-out and you'll see what I object to.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Parker Fly » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:45 pm

I'm simply making the point that what some consider to be 'cheating' others consider to be 'useful'.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby chris... » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:41 pm

Parker Fly wrote:what some consider to be 'cheating' others consider to be 'useful'.


Yep for autotune and splicing. Good stuff has been done with both.

But I wouldn't put loudness-maximizing nonsense in the same category.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Steve Hill » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:08 pm

Pete (Conz) Connelly wrote:"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

I have to say that when I read that, I thought to myself, what a tosser!
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby desmond » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:09 pm

And I thought it was Charles Dye...
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Peter Conz Connelly » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:48 pm

Steve Hill wrote:
Pete (Conz) Connelly wrote:"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

I have to say that when I read that, I thought to myself, what a tosser!

Yep, it was at this point I couldn't be ar$ed to read any more! It really wound me up!!!

Although I like the track, I don't think the mix / production to "4 minutes" is that good. I'm confident I could achieve better results in my less spectacular and humble studio.

Cheers,
Peter
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Mixedup » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:56 am

Maybe we all need to shout a bit louder about the loudness wars to get our point heard...
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby . . . Delete This User . . . » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:28 pm

lol

or should that be "chuckles quietly" , for more dynamic range?
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Jadoube » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:57 pm

I just read the article. I don't agree with the sound, but these folks are clearly mixing for a certain market niche. As he correctly points out, not all music belongs in this style of bit shredding loudness. Why is there even a war anymore? It's about as loud as it can get isn't it? Just worry about making something good. Has anything suffered because it is NOT mixed to maximum warp? A good song NOT become a hit because it's too quiet? I am curious.
People need to get some perspective I think... probably starting with the "record company" folks who allegedly fuel the "war" part of the equation.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Len » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:25 pm

Sorry - but while I hate the loudness wars, you have to think about whether hip hop and the kinds of new RnB these guys are doing sounds better really loud or with lots of dynamics - this music is artificially created in the first place, so why do you think dynamics is needed?

But yes, if you ultra-compressed John Martyn's Solid Air or any Pink Floyd record I would be really bleedin' annoyed!
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Steve Hill » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:41 pm

I'm all for compressing hip-hop to the max. That way, when you turn it down to an inaudible level, it stays turned down and doesn't jump up and bite you.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby bonde » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:17 pm

my first post on the forum

i also noticed that the guy described timbaland as the mozart of our times or something.

hes been very successful but i can think of other albums etc produced in recent years that to me, are far more unique and absorbing and still commercially popular.

im not rally a hip hop/r n b fan but to me - his stuff all sounds kinda the same to alot of other urban tracks.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Gelled_Fringe » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:54 pm

every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers. this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to wanted to appear 'hip' and starting maxing the L1, but don't blame r&b, don't blame hip hop, don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Steve Hill » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:58 pm

That's a very "thoughtful" contribution.

Why don't you just tell everyone in the world who fails to share your perfectly infallible view of the world to f*** off while you're here and go for broke?

Check the forum rules on offensive comments.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Bradley Steenkamp » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:10 pm

Gelled_Fringe wrote:every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers. this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to wanted to appear 'hip' and starting maxing the L1, but don't blame r&b, don't blame hip hop, don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it

Its not about moaning, its about expressing opinions and keeping an open mind. Why should we all conform to the methods used by people such as timaland/kanye ect? The grandad comment is a little odd! I'm a 27 year old male with a passion for music of all types ranging from classical to metal, hard rock, girly pop and even the odd bit of timbaland!!!

Got to admit I laughed about the Mozart comment in that interview. Putting together a 4 min pop song on a sequencer is not quite in the same league as writing a symphony with nothing but an old keyboard instrument and some manuscript!

I can't help wondering if all that expensive outboard gear is really needed. These highly paid mix guys claim it is but I have a sneaky feeling most people would struggle to tell the difference between the song mixed using high end outboard or a liquid mix/UAD in the box system! Especially when its all converted down to AAC and played back via the good old ipod!
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Gelled_Fringe » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:11 pm

Steve Hill wrote:That's a very "thoughtful" contribution.

Why don't you just tell everyone in the world who fails to share your perfectly infallible view of the world to f*** off while you're here and go for broke?

Check the forum rules on offensive comments.

it was indeed indisputably thoughtful, and was in no way offensive - grizzled knopfler wannabes have dealt with much worse in their time i'm sure
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Jadoube » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:37 pm

Gelled_Fringe wrote:reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers ... just go and make music the way YOU want it

LMAO -- hah hah mike oldfield. Nasti!

I agree with your final conclusion... making music is what its about... or recordings of music in this context; "Sound on Sound"

But... it is a discussion... no harm in that. You have to know if you read a thread about "Loudness Wars", "Mac Vs PC", "Reaper Vs the world", "Analog Vs Digital", "ITB Vs a mixing desk" etc etc... it's going to be a mud fest to a certain degree. Why else would you look?

But I think Gelled_Fringe has a valid point; it's modern music and it's loud. You have to p**s off the previous generation somehow or you are not trying hard enough... Elvis and the Beatles etc were annoying travesties, an affront to real music.. blah blah blah.

The Mozart bit was a bit much... not a real comparison there if ya ask me!
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby adam miller » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:26 am

Bradley wrote:
Its not about moaning, its about expressing opinions and keeping an open mind.


That's the bit I find most at odds with the general opinion on these forums- where's the open mind with regards to loudness? Even the thread title reads like a Loudness War Neighbourhood Watch manifesto. 'Pointing the Finger at...' Has anyone considered that people might actually like loud records?
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby moo the magic cow » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:56 am

Korff wrote:Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...


Is EQ? Reverb? There's nothing honest about records and there rarely has been.

you have to think about whether hip hop and the kinds of new RnB these guys are doing sounds better really loud or with lots of dynamics - this music is artificially created in the first place, so why do you think dynamics is needed?


I am really wondering how you got from A to B here. Why should electronic music lack dynamics?
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby A Non O Miss » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:11 am

The more I think about it, the more the loudness war doesn't bother me. He is right, a lot of music and the simple age we are in kind of requires maxed masters. Accept it already.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Steve Hill » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:46 am

adam miller wrote:Has anyone considered that people might actually like loud records?

The Who were/are loud. Led Zeppelin were/are loud. Black Sabbath were/are loud. Jimi Hendrix was loud. I've seen all these guys live.

Modern music is not "loud". It is compressed so that the volume never changes. With no dynamic range you can have no "loudness" because you have no dynamic range, no point of reference, and no opportunity to create dramatic interest with credcendi, diminuendi, or sudden dynamic changes from say ppp to fff.

You might as well start with a thousand years of musical history and say hey, let's just do it all without using the black notes on the keyboard, that would be clever.

Club music is "loud" because it's shoved through big speakers. It is not loud in any recognisable musical sense.

In that sense, it is of course patently absurd to call it "loudness wars".
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby adam miller » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:20 am

Steve Hill wrote:
Modern music is not "loud". It is compressed so that the volume never changes. With no dynamic range you can have no "loudness" because you have no dynamic range, no point of reference, and no opportunity to create dramatic interest with credcendi, diminuendi, or sudden dynamic changes from say ppp to fff.

Ok... Have you considered that people might actually like 'dynamically restricted' records? Or that records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?

I dislike inappropriately smashed records too- but 'loudness' has a place.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby onesecondglance » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:42 am

adam miller wrote:Ok... Have you considered that people might actually like 'dynamically restricted' records? Or that records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?

if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.

personally, i can't think of any instances where full on loudness is appropriate for more than three or four minutes at a time. and i'm into metal!
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby snipsnip » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:56 am

onesecondglance wrote:
if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.


I dont like over compressed records, but your argument isnt true. The voice complaining about it is tiny. Most people dont care.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby Steve Hill » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:59 am

I'd say most people don't understand. They find some music physically tiring to listen to but don't understand why. That's not the same as not caring.
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon

Postby snipsnip » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:15 am

I dunno.

music isnt entertainment for a lot of people, its just something going on while theyre doing something else, or something to dance to etc. I dont know many people who see it as something to treasure.

I reckon 70% of people wouldnt even know what you meant if you asked them if they found music 'tiring'.

Some girls I know said they didnt buy any music because streaming from youtube was 'just as good'. Which to them it is. They dont care about it as long as its instantly accessable. Thats FAR more important to a lot of people than the quality these days.
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