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A Weird MIDI Problem

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A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:23 pm

I'm having a problem I don't understand. When I go to edit a MIDI part the system adds duplicate notes to some, not all, of the existing notes, so they double up . I then have to go through looking for the doubles and deleting them. It can happen at random at any time. Last night I opened a project and one (just one) keyboard note leaped out of the mix and I had to go fix it. I hadn't touched the part.

I thought it was some sort of loop but this doesn't quite makes sense. The part may be fine for days, then suddenly it has doubled notes in it. These are written into the part and are not just a playback quirk.

I expect it'll be something completely simple but what am I missing? I don't even see how it can happen.

Thanks.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby desmond » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:05 pm

How did you record the parts?

If using a MIDI master keyboard, you can often set up splits/layers on these, so if you have two layers active, you'll get two MIDI notes for each key you press (which could be on the same, or different, MIDI channels).

Otherwise, you'll probably need to be more specific as to what "your system" is and how it's rigged up, in order for us to be of any help...
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby BJG145 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:32 pm

petev3.1 wrote:The part may be fine for days, then suddenly it has doubled notes in it.

As Desmond suggests, duplicate notes most commonly arise from the original recording. But if you're sure that's not the case, the only other possibility is that the track is record-enabled and is somehow picking up these extra notes either from itself or some other track or instrument during playback.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby Dynamic Mike » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:45 am

Do you use a USB hardware transport controller or editor interface? The controls can generate midi notes if it's not set up correctly in the remote devices section.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:13 pm

Thanks.

I'm using instrument tracks in C6. No external controllers or editors. No split layers. It doesn't happen at the recording stage.

It's possible that it happens when the track is record-enabled (I haven't paid attention to this and will watch out in case) but even so I struggle to see why it would actually record new notes. It seems to happen most when I go into the part to edit it, but also to happen occasionally when I haven't looked at it at all.

Try as I might I can't make it happen, it seems to do it when it feels like it.

If I was using a lot of complex midi parts this problem would stop me working.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby desmond » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:42 pm

The only way to get new notes in recorded MIDI regions, is to record them in, or to edit them in, or data corruption.

If you're *sure* this doesn't happen at the recording stage, and leaving aside bugs/data corruption for the time being - is it possible you're accidentally hitting some key command that's duplicating these events without you realising it?

Are the events *exact* duplicates of all the data - eg, all notes are duped, with the same values, MIDI channels, start and stop times etc? Or are they different? Is it *all* data in the region, or just some subsection of it?
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:15 pm

desmond wrote:The only way to get new notes in recorded MIDI regions, is to record them in, or to edit them in, or data corruption.

If you're *sure* this doesn't happen at the recording stage, and leaving aside bugs/data corruption for the time being - is it possible you're accidentally hitting some key command that's duplicating these events without you realising it?

Are the events *exact* duplicates of all the data - eg, all notes are duped, with the same values, MIDI channels, start and stop times etc? Or are they different? Is it *all* data in the region, or just some subsection of it?

It definitely doesn't happen at the recording stage and it can happen when I haven't done anything at all. The duplicates are exact, same duration, start/stop time etc. They're difficult to spot visually even on magnified views. If there are ten notes in the part it may affect one or a few of them but never all. It usually happens within one section of the part at a time. It may not happen for days and then happen every day for the next three.

I'm baffled. It causes real problems. I can't see how it can be anything I'm doing but must be something to do with the set-up. But what? I bet it'll be something completely obvious and simple.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby The Elf » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:22 pm

There's an easy fix, whatever is causing it - Cubase has a 'delete doubles' function.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby BJG145 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:55 pm

Does this occur in different projects, or just in one particular project...? If the double notes are cropping up in an instrument track I'd be looking closely at the instrument; maybe even swap it out as an experiment. (?) Also make sure the track's MIDI input is set to something specific; maybe something unexpected, instead of leaving it on Omni. (I've had problems like this in the past with Sonar, so I know how annoying it is! No idea what the cause is here so just brainstorming things to try.)
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:20 pm

Thanks Elf. 'Delete doubles' is what I need. I'll go find it. Usually it's just one or two notes and they're very audible but sometimes it's a bigger problem.

BJG - I'll check the MIDI input just in case. It happens on more than instrument and more than project so its not that. It makes no sense to me at all.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:12 pm

I've done some experimenting and it hasn't helped. I can't make it happen so have to wait until it does to check anything. It doesn't seem to be caused by any particular keystroke or action. Maybe it's the weather.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:59 pm

It happened again last night. I hadn't touched the part and but on playback could suddenly hear one note too loud. Sure enough, it was doubled. Just one note out of twenty and seemingly at random. Weird.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby The Elf » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:49 pm

I wonder if you've perhaps got dirty key contacts creating a double-trigger.

Can you trace it to a few specific notes, or does it happen anywhere on the keyboard?
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby BJG145 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:42 pm

^^^

There is a logical explanation somewhere. Tapping every key a few times with a MIDI monitor running would test Elf's theory.

Had the track been record-enabled? What MIDI input was it enabled on? Are you sure there aren't a bunch of doubled notes that you're just discovering, rather than that they're suddenly appearing...?

Troubleshooting this stuff needs a methodical approach. Eg, remove all duplicates, clone the track, disable recording or change the input channel on the copy, and save as a new version.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:45 am

The Elf wrote:I wonder if you've perhaps got dirty key contacts creating a double-trigger.

Can you trace it to a few specific notes, or does it happen anywhere on the keyboard?

It happens when the keyboard isn't switched on. It's definitely not a recording problem. I've tried and failed to associate it with some particular action or keystroke but it seems to happen when it feels like happening.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:51 am

BJG145 wrote:^^^

There is a logical explanation somewhere. Tapping every key a few times with a MIDI monitor running would test Elf's theory.

Had the track been record-enabled? What MIDI input was it enabled on? Are you sure there aren't a bunch of doubled notes that you're just discovering, rather than that they're suddenly appearing...?

Troubleshooting this stuff needs a methodical approach. Eg, remove all duplicates, clone the track, disable recording or change the input channel on the copy, and save as a new version.

It's definitely not the keys, and the track doesn't need to be record-enabled. They're not there all the time undiscovered because if they were I'd hear them. What happens is that I can be working on the project on other (non-midi) parts and then suddenly one or more notes in a MIDI part will become too loud and I know they've been doubled.

There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason...
...but there must be.

Many thanks for all the suggestions though. It'll be something silly as always.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby BJG145 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:59 pm

petev3.1 wrote:It's definitely not the keys, and the track doesn't need to be record-enabled. They're not there all the time undiscovered because if they were I'd hear them. What happens is that I can be working on the project on other (non-midi) parts and then suddenly one or more notes in a MIDI part will become too loud.

Maybe worth checking for doubled notes that haven't yet become apparent by lassoing all the notes in the track and moving/deleting them...? They're not going to appear spontaneously in a track that's not enabled for recording unless your Cubase install is messed up in a very bizarre way.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby CS70 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:25 pm

Are you using a common template, or every project is new?
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:27 pm

The project is new each time. I don't usually use MIDI much so I've not been too bothered about it up until now, but I'm doing more now and it's a real nuisance.

It seems impossible that new notes would appear in a part but they do. They may be the result of some action that I'm performing but I can't spot any correlation. It just happens now and again out of the blue.

At least it appears not to be something completely obvious that I should know about.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby CS70 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:30 pm

petev3.1 wrote:The project is new each time. I don't usually use MIDI much so I've not been too bothered about it up until now, but I'm doing more now and it's a real nuisance.

It seems impossible that new notes would appear in a part but they do. They may be the result of some action that I'm performing but I can't spot any correlation. It just happens now and again out of the blue.

At least it appears not to be something completely obvious that I should know about.

I use Sonar, but a few times I had seriously bizarre MIDI behavior when the project was corrupted. I'm wondering if Cubase uses a template when it starts a new project, and that template may be corrupted.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:40 am

Thanks for trying to find the problem CS70. I haven't been using any template except the default empty project so it doesn't seem likely to be that. At first I thought it only occurred when I was editing the part, but later it started happening at other times. I can go for days with no problem, then it happens again. I can't make it happen or predict it. I think I might have to live with it until the next upgrade at least.
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby desmond » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:44 am

petev3.1 wrote:Thanks for trying to find the problem CS70. I haven't been using any template except the default empty project so it doesn't seem likely to be that. At first I thought it only occurred when I was editing the part, but later it started happening at other times. I can go for days with no problem, then it happens again. I can't make it happen or predict it. I think I might have to live with it until the next upgrade at least.

When do you think it *started* happening? Was it linked to any upgrade, purchase, or studio configuration change, that you can think of..?
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Re: A Weird MIDI Problem

Postby petev3.1 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:22 pm

desmond wrote:When do you think it *started* happening? Was it linked to any upgrade, purchase, or studio configuration change, that you can think of..?

It started happening when I started to use MIDI parts. For a long time i've just been mixing or recording guitar pieces and not using MIDI. Then I recorded a piano piece for a change and the problem appeared. I assumed at first it was just that project affected but it turns out that it affects all projects.

I can live with it because I'm a dabbler but it would be hopeless if I were a busy pro.
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