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Can`t anybody groove any more?

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Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby IvanSC » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:21 am

this is prolly OT but what the heck.
I am in the middle of considering putting a band together to play fun stuff at little no-count gigs for hardly any money, since this seems to be the only way to play what you want to play.

In the course of organising things, it occurred to me that he number of young players who can actually recognise a good groove, let alone create one is dwindling fast.

Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Jim Taylor » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:01 am

LOL

Not whilst all the guys currently getting airplay (and whatever other 'play' they can get) are tortured little souls who need another mother

Now all we need is for someone to own up to losing the funk and we might get back on track

Lead the charge

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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Dave Rowles » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:31 pm

Lots of people are getting the groove back. I know a few players who would rather hold down a good groove then play something complicated and flashy. It's part of my philosophy too!

But yeah, there is a shocking lack of groove in certain generations!
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby John Willett » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:24 pm

I thought the groove went out with the vinyl record.

Its just pits in plastic nowadays.

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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby tomafd » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:25 pm

Yup, watching the average punter trying to dance to the more extreme forms of dubstep and similar genres is like watching the Simpsons electrocuting each other. Breakbeats are one thing, beats destroyed to the point of rhythmic unintelligibility are quite another. You may as well try and dance to a metal workshop in Cairo.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Richie Royale » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:33 pm

tomafd wrote:metal workshop in Cairo.

This I like the sound of. More rhythm than dubstep.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby ken long » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:33 pm

John Willett wrote:I thought the groove went out with the vinyl record.

Its just pits in plastic nowadays.


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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Handlestash » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:37 pm

I know an AMAZING singer who was fired from her band a couple of months ago for, how did they put it, oh yes,
They asked her to 'tone it down on stage' and she couldn't so they fired her.
I've seen this girl perform umpteen times and she has such a great groove.
The other chaps just stood still.
What kind of music did they play, I hear you ask, that prompted them to such drastic measures?
FUNK METAL! Al la Rage!
And they wanted her to stand still!!!
Wan**rs.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Commander » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:49 pm

It's all about the groove man, all about the groove ...
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Handlestash » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:53 pm

You've seen the footage of Bill Withers on The old grey whistel test playing Ain't no Sunshine?
His drummer man...
Grooooooovvvvvvvveeeeeeeyyyyyyy.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Temp » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:50 pm

In case you hadn't...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tIdIqbv7SPo

Reckon the bass player's just about ready for bed I agree about the absence of a groove in these bright young things; been trying to get a soul/funk/rare groove outfit going for a long time round here.

Coming from the home town of JTQ you'd have thought I'd have some luck, but no joy as yet.

Sorry - had to tag this on. Creamy clav!

Bill Withers - use me

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g3hBYTkI-sE

Can we turn this into a groove appreciation thread, brothers and sisters?
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby dubbmann » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:56 pm

great post! i definitely agree w/t thought, and i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap. america's soul engine is closed for business, and we're all missing it. look at the success of the dap kings (btw, they recorded a fake noir-soul lp under the title 'revenge of mr. mopoji' soundtrack - killer rhythm section). i've said for years now that rap was the evil spawn of crack cocaine and cheap drum machines (sort of like a very hip dr.who villain) and among other things it's meant a whole generation of black musicians haven't learnt to play drums, bass, horns, etc, or to sing for that matter. one interesting phenomenon of the last ten years: a number of older generation black soul musicians (solomon burke, sharon jones, betty levette, ) are being discovered or rediscovered by the listening public because there are practically no younger ones and the older folks can finally get some oxygen. the comment about bill wither's drummer was spot on: listen to the backing tracks on his cuts, they were as tight as (insert crude sexual metaphor here) and there wasn't an ounce of wasted playing.

i could go on but i think i've said enough =:-O

cheers,

d
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:08 pm

I'll be unpopular... The whole 'groove' thing has a bit of a whiff about it. A drummer I used to play with went to MI and was regularly awarded a mark for his 'groove'. It becomes an idea guarded by musos who appreciate 'real' music. Not cool to the kids. Everyone appreciates the old players, but there are plenty of other places to go with a musical feel.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Ronnie Wibbley » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:13 pm

Bloody Kraftwerk! Bloody Atari 1040s!

See what you've done? Do you???
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Persuazion » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:30 pm

IvanSC wrote:
Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.

Lessons from the man himself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdz88MBWomo
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby IvanSC » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:59 pm

Ben wrote:I'll be unpopular... The whole 'groove' thing has a bit of a whiff about it. A drummer I used to play with went to MI and was regularly awarded a mark for his 'groove'. It becomes an idea guarded by musos who appreciate 'real' music. Not cool to the kids. Everyone appreciates the old players, but there are plenty of other places to go with a musical feel.

Yes but I am talking specifically about music aimed at your arse.
the vast majority of music I hear nowadays hs the same feel as a marching band.
I posted a song file in the our songs part of the forum. GO listen & even if you HATE the musical style, tell me it didnt get you wiggling in your orthopedic chair.

OH, boy. 22 listens already and not ONE comment.

Too sad.

Even if you hate it, say so.
This is not about being great musicians it is about a collective conciousness.
Damn that sounds so pretentious. Sorry.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby jayzed » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:20 pm

I think that most musicians don't get to play enough as a unit these days.

House residencies are pretty much a thing of the past and there isn't a circuit, not that I can see anyway. Not in the sense that there used to be.

Constant playing (to an audience) teaches the importance of feel and space. It teaches that amazing, almost telepathic sense of knowing what the other people are about to do which lets you leave space or fill up space left for you. This can happen without constant playing but I imagine it's a lot less likely and not with mere mortals like myself.

I was lucky enough to get a 'groove' of sorts with one bunch and although we were never anywhere near to making it I'll never forget that chemistry that took us two years of playing at least twice a week to get. Musicians who get to play more would have more chance to reach this level sooner, I imagine. It's an amazing feeling and we were nowhere near good enough to get it all the time but when we did, it was the most amazing high. This is what I think I hear in music that to me has a great groove - this is the sense of musicians playing off one another.

This isn't a rant of 'the old days are better' (although it probably sounds like it). No, it's a rant of playing more is better - although that is harder to do these days, now that music is less of an event, more a ubiquity in all our lives.

That's my take, anyway.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Ian Stewart » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:11 pm

The only thing people are interested in now is being managers, everything else is unappealing.

I saw Bootsie Collins live - wow, its like seeing the energy that controls the universe. I can't describe it in words so won't try. So I'm white, into new wave, electronica and classical music but Bootsie Collins can cut through everything. Bootsie Collins takes over where quantum physics stops.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby IvanSC » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:12 pm

28 listens & the only comment I have so far came from a chum I occasionally jam with - sent it to him as anexample of what we COULD be doing & he just replied that his jaw was on the floor. Not his thing at all but "what a feel"
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Ian Stewart » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:27 pm

dubbmann wrote:great post! i definitely agree w/t thought, and i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap.

Partly agree with that. Old school is good, it was designed for dancing. Check out this :

Ultramagnetic MCs

It also is where the prodigy got their title from.

Don't forget early MCs like Lovebug Starski.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby IvanSC » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:44 pm

*sigh*

I rest my case.

Loop city.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby ................... » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:57 pm

Groovy players are becoming a bit scarcer, I think it's true. A quick check with new players is if they can play on, ahead or behind of the beat, to order. Still in time of course, just pushing it about, as you do. Don't seem to find that so much at the moment. It's no criticism of ability, I think it's a lack of opportunity. I still remember, gratefully, the people who showed me about this, and how it messed with my head at the time! It was a good lesson though
It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby IvanSC » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:45 pm

Used to have some midi drum files that were played onto a midi kit by the late great Larry Landin.
Mentioned on here before how it opened my eyes as to how a truly great player can mess with the pocket but consistently, which is of course part of the key.

The other thing is using your ears and eyes more than your mouth.

Still not sure about this "kids don`t get to play out any more" bit.

I can remember rehearsing till my fingers bled for weeks before that ONE gig you managed to get - usually twenty or thirty minutes as opening band for the local heroes of the time.
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby hollowsun » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:51 am

Ronnie Wibbley wrote:Bloody Kraftwerk!
Oh... Kraftwerk have their own 'groove' albeit a 'mechanised' one but it's a groove nonetheless. They're not trying to be funky or groovy in the strict sense of the word - they WANT that 'man machine' mechanisation.

Ronnie Wibbley wrote:Bloody Atari 1040s!
You may have a point there....

Sequencer quantisation switched on by default that will correct the cack-handedness of many a bedroom muso the world over has probably (arguably definitely) led to a decrease in real, honest to goodness playing skills. I mean, back in the day, you just played/practiced/recorded the part over and over and over again until you nailed it - now, even the sloppiest performance comes out sounding in time (and any duff notes can be micro-edited out). And this doesn't just apply to MIDI sequencing - audio events can be quantised and corrected and sanitised and even vocals can be brought into time and into tune with all the tools available to us today.

It's no wonder, then, that when (or these days, IF) such people venture out to play with others in a live ensemble situation, no-one can hack it.

I am not setting myself up here as a paragon of virtue by the way. I used to be able to play fairly proficiently but it is s-o-o-o-o-o much easier and quicker to let my MPC take care of the timing (I draw the line at micro-editing bum notes out though - quicker and easier to just do it again than dick around with all that). As a result, my playing has suffered and I'd probably (almost certainly) fail Ivan's standards of 'groovability' ... but I might have passed 20 years ago!!
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby post version » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:58 am

Ronnie Wibbley wrote:Bloody Kraftwerk! Bloody Atari 1040s!

See what you've done? Do you???


it's done by machines , cause they don't make mistakes
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby IvanSC » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:27 am

let`s not forget that it is possible to alter tempo within a sequence, plus a bit of light & shade in velocity can make all the difference.

But it still comes down to people knowing how to make it all breathe & live.

So - any of you listened to the file I posted last night care to make a comment?
Song was recorded in Louisiana using local (very talented admittedly) talent & is about par for the course in t3erms of feel.

Friend of mine who worked in Nashville at the same time as me and came back to the UK a bit before me said she was not interested in getting a band together to gig her material as she couldn`t find anyone that could play ensemble well enough.
*sigh*
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby Zukan » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:07 am

Commander wrote:It's all about the groove man, all about the groove ...

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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby ConcertinaChap » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:10 am

Herewego wrote:It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.
From a different world of music, I couldn't agree with you more. English trad. dance music is very functional - it's all about getting the feet moving, and there's nothing like playing for dancers for learning to get the drive into the music.

I uaed to worry about the English music scene, that we were all getting grey together, but there's quite a few kids coming through now, particularly fiddlers for some reason, and my God, can some of them groove!

Chris
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby IvanSC » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:33 am

Sorry I am not very good at posting links - Zukan kindly just explained how so here is just one example of A groove.
Not the only one out there folks.
Don`t focus on whether or not you like the song, just listen to the players & how they work together.

http://www.deezer.com/track/blue-cajun-moon-T1730896
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more?

Postby IvanSC » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:33 am

ConcertinaChap wrote:
Herewego wrote:It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.

From a different world of music, I couldn't agree with you more. English trad. dance music is very functional - it's all about getting the feet moving, and there's nothing like playing for dancers for learning to get the drive into the music.

I uaed to worry about the English music scene, that we were all getting grey together, but there's quite a few kids coming through now, particularly fiddlers for some reason, and my God, can some of them groove!

Chris

Yeah - heard one or two tasty ones on Mike Hardins show.
and you`ll always have Dave Mattacks.
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