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OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

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OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Agamemnon » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:57 pm

Anyone have any plug-ins they can recommend to filter out the horrible buzzing sound from the crowds at the World Cup, and leave the commentary intact? (and if so, could they pass the recommendation onto ITV/BBC, please?)
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Neil C » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:29 pm

'While many have complained in the past about the noise and distrurbances that the Vuvuzella causes, one can only wonder if those same complaints will be retracted after you hear this large one on a daily basis.'

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIGIAh2GTOA&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8iFzZND0ak&feature=player_embedded
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Agamemnon » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:41 pm

HeHe
Must admit the BBC coverage of the match this afternoon seemed much better. Hope ITV have got it sorted for tonight. If not, here is what I've thought of so far:

Put a gate and/or expander on the commentary. Maybe see if any eq or filter setting can improve it. Download some (acceptable) football crowd noise from a free sound-effect site. Blend in, preferably through surround channels.

...or I could just turn the volume down....
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby ken long » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:14 pm

Agamemnon wrote:HeHe
Must admit the BBC coverage of the match this afternoon seemed much better. Hope ITV have got it sorted for tonight. If not, here is what I've thought of so far:

Put a gate and/or expander on the commentary. Maybe see if any eq or filter setting can improve it. Download some (acceptable) football crowd noise from a free sound-effect site. Blend in, preferably through surround channels.

...or I could just turn the volume down....

Good luck cueing up the goal "swells"!
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby El Sid » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:42 pm

i passed the sound through a hardware equalizer on its way to the speakers yesterday during the first match. a -15db notch filter around 455Hz helped a bit but the tone moves around so it was only a help but a reasonable improvment...

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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Agamemnon » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:13 pm

In the end, I didn't do any fancy processing, and my wife made me listen to it on headphones - she couldn't stand the noise, apparently very much not alone there. We made the vow ,as usual when ITV muck up, to make a point of NOT buying any of the advertised products in the breaks - bear that in mind you advertising execs out there!

As for the match - Heskey good -everyone else - relax guys enjoy yourselves! Rob Green - he is after all West Ham's (my team) goalie, so no surprises there - but may be best option to persevere with. Did Fabio not watch any of the videos when Lampard and Gerard played together before in the middle for England? Where was Joe Cole - our most intelligent player? But most of all....

Why is it so hard to be an England football fan?

(sorry, gone a bit OT there...)
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby BenLD » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:35 am

El Sid wrote:i passed the sound through a hardware equalizer on its way to the speakers yesterday during the first match. a -15db notch filter around 455Hz helped a bit but the tone moves around so it was only a help but a reasonable improvment...

Sid

Man that noise was annoying -

Apparently the pitch is B flat below middle C; Middle C is 261 Hz roughly, so a notch around 240Hz might help - and I expect the octave above too for the harmonics (around 480Hz)

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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby caveman82 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:16 pm

Agamemnon wrote: Hope ITV have got it sorted for tonight. If not, here is what I've thought of so far:

ITV can't even work the technology to show goals forget about being intelligent enough to work the technology to filter the sound of vuvuzelas in the crowd!

The BBC seemed to have done a fairly ok job for the Algeria Slovenia game so far.
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby El Sid » Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:18 pm

BenLD wrote:
Apparently the pitch is B flat below middle C; Middle C is 261 Hz roughly, so a notch around 240Hz might help - and I expect the octave above too for the harmonics (around 480Hz)
Ben

theoretically yes, but the only frequency i found to work (only slightly mind you) was around 460Hz...

someone frmm Cedar should look into this
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby RegressiveRock » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:32 pm

El Sid wrote:
BenLD wrote:
Apparently the pitch is B flat below middle C; Middle C is 261 Hz roughly, so a notch around 240Hz might help - and I expect the octave above too for the harmonics (around 480Hz)
Ben

theoretically yes, but the only frequency i found to work (only slightly mind you) was around 460Hz...

someone frmm Cedar should look into this
Sid

Not really, it's the first harmonic after the fundamental.
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby MC Deli » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:17 pm

I have just one comment to make on this:

vvvvvvvvvvzzzzzzzzzuuubbbbbbzzzzzzzzvvvvvvvvvvvvzzzzzzzzzz

That'll be all
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Matt_Moose » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:48 pm

Looks like problem may possibly be solved...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8737455.stm

2 days of competition, and more complaints than than praises.
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby MC Deli » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:47 pm

The TV viewing atmosphere is awful - there is no crowd drama or dynamic - the odd ooh but that's it.
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Studio Support Gnome » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:25 am

prosoniq have released a plug in to attempt to deal with it....

http://www.prosoniq.com/news/vuvux-for-mac-free-vuvuzela-filtering-plugin/


if i could be arsed to be interested in football i'd try it out....
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Matt_Moose » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:34 pm

I know diddly-squat about how media/TV/sound is all mixed together in those big trucks and then sent out over the airwaves, so may be taking out of my vuvuzela.

But...

Surely the pitchside mics send one audio feed to one channel on a mixing desk. And the commentators, if not in a sound proof box, at least talk into mics in a John Motson-esque style, so there's little background spill, and that goes to another channel on the desk. And surely the broadcaster is given those individual feeds and mixes them how they like?

Therefore, these supposed "experts" on TV who say "ahh - you can't notch out the frequencies because it'll take the vowel sounds out of the commentary" have missed the point? ie it should be possible to EQ the pitchside channel, and leave the commentary channel alone?

Or doesn't it work like that? Just want to be clear from all you pro-audio/broadcasting guys round here so I can present a coherent rant about football pundits down the pub...
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Steve A » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:58 pm

The problem is removing the sound from the crowd noise itself. Yes you could reduce the level of the general stadium noise in relation to the commentary but you would then rob the entire presentation of any sense of atmosphere. It would sound more like a snooker commentary and I bet you the BBC will get many times the level of complaints that they are currently getting if they did something like that.
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby chris... » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:59 pm

Matt_Moose wrote:Therefore, these supposed "experts" on TV who say "ahh - you can't notch out the frequencies because it'll take the vowel sounds out of the commentary" have missed the point?

Of course.

They can simply mix the ambience mics abit quieter. And/or try and filter the unwanted noise out of the ambience mics. This clearly needn't affect the commentators' mics.

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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby chris... » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:02 pm

Steve A wrote:The problem is removing the sound from the crowd noise itself. Yes you could reduce the level of the general stadium noise in relation to the commentary but you would then rob the entire presentation of any sense of atmosphere.

Well, that was the orig explanation given, and makes sense. My response would be the Vuvuzelas are the atmosphere, so if folk want atmosphere, then....

However, in the last day or so various reputable sources (I think including BBC News itself - but can't find the link) have, as Matt notes, stated that it would be difficult to filter the Vuvuzela noise without affecting the COMMENTARY.

Which is presumably boll*cks.

Although I am assuming the commentators are in some sort of relatively sound-proof commentary box...
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby desmond » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:18 pm

I just tried out the Prosoniq plugin on the current Spair vs Switzerland match.

It works surprisingly well!

Almost completely removes the horns quite transparently.
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Zukan » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:12 pm

desmond wrote:I just tried out the Prosoniq plugin on the current Spair vs Switzerland match.

It works surprisingly well!

Almost completely removes the horns quite transparently.

Now, all you need is a 'result' plugin, which strangely enough is something I am working on as we forum (you see how I converted a noun into a usable verb huh...huh?).

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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby MightyZeus » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:39 pm

I think the biggest problem with the world cup is the fact that they only selling Budweiser Beer in the stadiums. I'm now paying twice the amount i would for any other beer, and for what? to taste piss? Back to the vuvuzela issue, it's all the foreigners that are overly excited about the 'african' sounds...during the Portugal vs. Ivory Coast game, i watched a German group of fans that were blowing a vuvuzelas and a whistle (very irritating)! The funny thing about it is that they were also wearing ear plugs. You're in Africa and welcomed, but please, take it easy. This is a South African culture yes, but the rule is that u can only blow it when something exciting happens. Everyone's lost the plot and gone, vuvuzela crazy. I agree that it's excessive, someone needs to sabotage the vuvuzela manufacturers!
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby The Bunk » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:21 pm

I've just watched the Spain / Switzerland game (BBC), and there was something noticeably different. Took a while to notice, but the Vuvuzelas were barely audible....they were there alright but nothing like to the same extent as they have been up to now.
And then I started to notice what sounded like a synthetic crowd noise; I only noticed it because it seemed to increase with volume (slightly) each time the Swiss goalkpeeper took a goal kick...i.e. for no apparent reason. And it happened a few times (noticeable as the Swiss keeper took a hell of a lot of goal kicks). It almost seemed as if it was on some kind of loop.
I just wonder if the BBC have introduced some sort of background crowd noise to drown the racket out. Seriously, it was a dramatic improvement.
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Matt_Moose » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:03 am

The Bunk wrote:I just wonder if the BBC have introduced some sort of background crowd noise to drown the racket out. Seriously, it was a dramatic improvement.

I said _exactly_ that to the wife last night during the South Africa game. And why? I pressed the red button for option on commentary. It was BBC TV v 5Live. Wow - 5Live was "buuzzzpppzzzzuuuzzzz" with no crowd noise at all. TV was usual MoTD sounding crowd with a low buzz - barely audible. You couldn't believe it was the same match.

We were talking about this in the garden before coming in (yeah, like how sad?) and I said "surely they could do some kind of automation or ducking of a generic crowd noise?" There must be some change (probably volume, maybe a frequency/switch to cheering, not tooting) for a goal (or near miss). Therefore they could monitor that, and duck the fake crowd as needed. Vuvuzelas do seem to have a relatively constant volume, as well as pitch. So any peaks above that should be easy to use as triggers.

I think ITV were just [email]cr@p[/email] with the England game.
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Matt_Moose » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:07 am

chris... wrote:However, in the last day or so various reputable sources (I think including BBC News itself - but can't find the link) have, as Matt notes, stated that it would be difficult to filter the Vuvuzela noise without affecting the COMMENTARY.

Which is presumably boll*cks.

Here's one link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment_and_arts/10317767.stm
Worryingly, it's Trevor Cox from the University of Salford and President of the Institute of Acoustics.... Although it does refer to the "Red button option" alluded to above.

chris... wrote:Although I am assuming the commentators are in some sort of relatively sound-proof commentary box...


For some commentators, pity it's not airtight too......
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby ken long » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:07 am

Matt_Moose wrote:
I think ITV were just [email]cr@p[/email] with the England game.

I think England were just crap in the England game!

Better luck tomorrow.

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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby onesecondglance » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:43 am

Matt_Moose wrote:
The Bunk wrote:I just wonder if the BBC have introduced some sort of background crowd noise to drown the racket out. Seriously, it was a dramatic improvement.

I said _exactly_ that to the wife last night during the South Africa game. And why? I pressed the red button for option on commentary. It was BBC TV v 5Live. Wow - 5Live was "buuzzzpppzzzzuuuzzzz" with no crowd noise at all. TV was usual MoTD sounding crowd with a low buzz - barely audible. You couldn't believe it was the same match.

i'm not sure that game is a good example - everyone went quiet when Uruguay got that second penalty. i've got friends over in SA and they said the vuvuzelas were all but silenced by that, so it's more people not playing the damned things rather than technical wizardry from the BBC. if they're just as quiet in the England match tomorrow maybe we can give them some credit
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:49 am

It all depends on how the pitch effects and commentary are getting back to the UK. Different matches, in different venues, covered by different broadcast facilities will result in different options and capabilities.

I don't know how this World Cup is structured, but the way these things are usually done is that a bunch of OB trucks are hired in to cover the pitch sound -- they might be independents or from a local broadcaster, or a combination of both. Often the sound balancer will be a specialist brought in as part of a team to ensure a consistent style as will the directors and other key staff.

There is usually a coordinating centre which takes in the feeds of the pitch effects from the different venues, along with dozens of different commentary feeds, and then distributes them to the right places. It is all seriously complicated stuff with different end broadcasters often wanting different things.

Clearly, it's not ideal to try to filter out the horn noise on the complete mix, because that is likely to have an impact on the wanted speech -- although there are some very sophisticated digital noise reduction systems now that are pretty good with this kind of thing, like the CEDAR DNS boxes.

The other issue is that most of this is live, so the solutions need to be real time and easy to implement and adjust, rather than complex post-production systems.

Where it is possible to get at the pitch effects independently of the commentary, then it should be possible to process to reduce the horn noise. But if some broadcasters want to keep the authenticity and some don't, you're into providing two separate feeds and there may simply not be the cabability of doing that.

There is also the issue of getting the appropriate processing equipment out to South Africa with people who know how to use it. I know the Beeb ship out a lot of gear to handle this stuff, but I very much doubt they included a bunch of CEDAR boxes!

Here are some links to articles I published in Line Up magazine (the journal of the Institute of Broadcast Sound)over recent years which you may find illuminating and educational.

www.ibs.org.uk/files/02_2006_FIFA_World_Cup.pdf

www.ibs.org.uk/files/02_International%20Football.pdf

www.ibs.org.uk/files/08_A_Very_British_Coup.pdf

www.ibs.org.uk/files/08_Bread_And_Butter.pdf

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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby The Bunk » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:12 am

onesecondglance wrote:[
i'm not sure that game is a good example - everyone went quiet when Uruguay got that second penalty. i've got friends over in SA and they said the vuvuzelas were all but silenced by that, so it's more people not playing the damned things rather than technical wizardry from the BBC. if they're just as quiet in the England match tomorrow maybe we can give them some credit

...valid point - in fact the ground all but emptied after the second Uruguay goal in any case - but the Spain / Switzerland game was no different to any of the others as regards whether there might or might not be the constant hornet's nest buzzing away in the background. It was just that the crowd noise was more noticeable than the Vuvuzelas but also it just didn't sound natural. I'm not criticising it because it was significantly better than the alternative but, in the same way that canned laughter on TV sitcoms is obvious, so (I thought) was this.

If they (the BBC or broadcasters) were behind this, at the end of the day you've got to give them credit, hold your hands up and say "fair play to them", they done good and I'm delighted for them and as long as they keep taking each game as it comes I'm sure they'll be successful, which is probably how Alan Shearer would analyse the situation.
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Re: OT (slightly) World Cup Vuvuzela filtering

Postby Spangler » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:59 am

I heard the BBC were very apologetic for the dull incessant drone blighting coverage of the World Cup, but insist they're sticking with Alan Shearer.
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