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Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

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Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby DaleSmith » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:08 pm

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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby narcoman » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:27 pm

hahahah! That'll be the day.


I love those "make it up blog" posts......
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby Chaconne » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:51 pm

Much ado about PT 9 apparently on its way at this coming AES, over at ** cough **

- could be rubbish, always entertaining reading if nothing else.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/pro-tools-hd-goes-native/542435-pro-tools-9-coming-9.html
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby DaleSmith » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:09 pm

I read it on Ultimate Metal forum

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/636231-pro-tools-without-digidesign-m-audio-interface.html

When I said it won't be cheap, I didn't see the price on the first link I posted. Apparently Avid have said they value the Pro Tools software in the region of $2500, so It'll be interesting to see whether they price it that high, or come down to Logic / Cubase territory..

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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby narcoman » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:21 am

.... pretty much the amount of money I'd bet against it

Just wierdos talking crap. Of course it's rubbish.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby JamesSimpson » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:35 am

I don't really see the point in making it non hardware compliant, I like the fact that its reliable and I don't really have to [ ****** ] with drivers to get things to work.

I'm not the only one either.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby Steve Hill » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:08 am

They won't do it for the same reason UAD won't.

There are no cracked copies, no pirates.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby JamesSimpson » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:22 am

Except that there are cracked copies of LE.... expanded to have the full track count of HD, minus the rest of the HD goodies.



But I know what you mean.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby Jack Ruston » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:56 am

That hacked thing is not functional. You couldn't actually use it for work. Not the same.

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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby Steve Hill » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:20 am

Anything without automatic plug-in delay compensation is unusable in a work context.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby The Elf » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:23 am

Steve Hill wrote:Anything without automatic plug-in delay compensation is unusable in a work context.
It's nice to see someone else who understands this point. How anyone manages without it, short of throwing the PC through a window, is beyond me.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby Frank Eleveld » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:37 am

Steve Hill wrote:Anything without automatic plug-in delay compensation is unusable in a work context.

Seconded!
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby narcoman » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:50 am

.... think that might be taking it a BIT too far!!

I used to get round it - back in Mix Cubed days - with the same plugin on each channel. Mind you - ITB mixing generally was oafish back then so it was more a pre-processing to a console.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby JamesSimpson » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:59 pm

It's clunky, it's irritating, its more than a mild annoyance, but its hardly "unworkable"?

And it's only unworkable as far as ITB mixing is concerned, tracking, editing, overdubbing, it's fine.




NOT to say that it isn't a PITA, and I would like to see adc added to LE even if its some sort of restricted nonsense.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby Sam Inglis » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:27 am

I'm not sure I understand why everyone has recently taken to saying that a mix engine without plug-in delay compensation is 'unworkable' or 'unusable'. Thousands of perfectly good records were made on old Pro Tools Mix systems without it. And with Pro Tools native systems, there's no need for it unless you're using plug-ins that require a lookahead buffer. Yes it's a pain if you want to do parallel processing with some third-party plug-ins that use lookahead. Otherwise... is it really such a big deal?
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby The Elf » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:02 am

The first time I used Pro Tools LE I dropped a couple of plug-ins on a drum track and it came out late. I didn’t know that LE lacked ADC and that came as a nasty shock. The official PT solution suggested to manually apply a delay to all the other tracks - I know there are better ways to handle this now, but at the time I was trusting the word from the horse’s mouth.

Then I added a couple of plug-ins to a bass track and that was now also arriving late, but with a different latency. More calculations to sort that one out…

Then I added a couple of plug-ins to a snare track. Aargh! Worse still, if I changed or removed plug-ins I had to calculate all over again!

It only took a few more of these calculations and re-calculations each time I added/changed/removed plug-ins to realise I simply couldn’t work this way.

I dropped PT LE like a hot potato and I’ve no intention of going back. I simply use it convert projects to a DAW that has ADC.

Before anyone begins telling me that there are easy ways to manage around this I’ll say that yes, I do know that now, and if folks have ways of getting around and working through it, then good luck to you. For myself I’ve absolutely no intentions of ever again working with a DAW without ADC. Life is simply too short.

Just my opinion.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby Sam Inglis » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:22 am

Are you sure that was Pro Tools LE? And which plug-ins were you using?

Like I say -- apart from plug-ins that use lookahead, or need to be routed out to DSP hardware, there shouldn't be any delay.

Just to check I am not going mad, I've just loaded up a drum multitrack session in LE, duplicated the snare track and placed some stock Digirack plug-ins on one copy. Sure enough there is no phasing and the tracks null completely when I reverse the polarity of one.

From what I remember, the business of calculating delay times and having them reported in the Mix window was something you needed to do in PT Mix systems, but that was to do with bussing delays within the TDM mixer and didn't affect LE systems.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby narcoman » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:46 am

Indeed Sam is right. Plugin delay isn't an issue affecting PT LE any more than any other native DAW...... never understood why people go on about that. It was a TDM issue. The ONLY time it's an LE issue is when LE plugins don't report their delay correctly - and in that instance you'll find you get the same problem in Logic and other native DAWs.

Or to put it more simply - LE has ADC. Always has.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby The Elf » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:55 am

From official Digidesign documentation:

"A few years ago, Automatic Delay Compensation was added to Pro Tools|HD systems to improve mixing and increase recording accuracy with Pro Tools TDM systems.
When activated, the Automatic Delay Compensation feature automatically makes adjustments in Pro Tools HD software to compensate for all latencies in the I/O, internal and external routing, and plug-in algorithm processing, ensuring that recordings and mixes stay perfectly time aligned and phase accurate.
Host-based Pro Tools systems such as Pro Tools LE and Pro Tools M-Powered, on the other hand, do not have this Automatic Delay Compensation feature. In most cases, however, mixer latencies with host-based systems are not a factor. In cases where delay compensation is necessary to ensure that audio stays time aligned, there is a way to manually compensate for plug-in latencies by using the DigiRack Time Adjuster plug-in, or by slightly moving or “nudging” tracks."
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby Sam Inglis » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:03 pm

The point is that in an LE system, delay compensation is not *needed* unless plug-ins impose a significant delay (greater than that imposed by the buffer size).

In any native system, the input and output buffers provide what you might call processing 'headroom' -- a certain amount of time for the CPU to get all the necessary audio processing done before the audio is returned to the outputs. This includes plug-in processing, but also things like routing and gain changes applied by faders. And with nearly all plug-ins, the CPU doesn't *need* extra time above and beyond this to get the processing done. So it can return the processed audio in perfect sync with unprocessed audio.

The problems arise with plug-ins that require lookahead or bussing out to a DSP card.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby The Elf » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:23 pm

I'm going back a long time, so no idea what plugs I used, but they were not external or DSP plugs - but they knocked my drum mic's out of alignment.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby JamesSimpson » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:59 pm

If you set your buffer to as long as possible, i think its 2000samples now in LE?


Most plugins are fine, Waves, Digirack, Massey, etc.

PSP plugins, cause a huge delay and they completely [ ****** ] with the sound, but i like em enough to compensate.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby narcoman » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:35 pm

The Elf wrote:I'm going back a long time, so no idea what plugs I used, but they were not external or DSP plugs - but they knocked my drum mic's out of alignment.

sure - but that'll be because you had the latency set too low......
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby The Elf » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:44 pm

narcoman wrote:
The Elf wrote:I'm going back a long time, so no idea what plugs I used, but they were not external or DSP plugs - but they knocked my drum mic's out of alignment.

sure - but that'll be because you had the latency set too low......
Nobody gave me that advice when I asked here at the time I discovered the problem!

Nothing spoiled. I'm more than happy with my DAW of choice!
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby narcoman » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:02 pm

hahah!! Well - there's far more wrong with LE than just that!! It's missing nearly all of the good stuff init?
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby thenaturallevel » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:01 am

Sam Inglis wrote:The point is that in an LE system, delay compensation is not *needed* unless plug-ins impose a significant delay (greater than that imposed by the buffer size).

In any native system, the input and output buffers provide what you might call processing 'headroom' -- a certain amount of time for the CPU to get all the necessary audio processing done before the audio is returned to the outputs. This includes plug-in processing, but also things like routing and gain changes applied by faders. And with nearly all plug-ins, the CPU doesn't *need* extra time above and beyond this to get the processing done. So it can return the processed audio in perfect sync with unprocessed audio.

The problems arise with plug-ins that require lookahead or bussing out to a DSP card.


I always thought that this wasn't true. If a plugin caused a 1 sample delay it was always a 1 sample delay regardless of the buffer size.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby Sam Inglis » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:06 am

Come to think of it you might be right. I suppose the point might be better put by saying that most plug-ins don't actually cause any delay, even one sample, so most of the time there is nothing to compensate for in LE systems.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby narcoman » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:28 am

thenaturallevel wrote:
I always thought that this wasn't true. If a plugin caused a 1 sample delay it was always a 1 sample delay regardless of the buffer size.

sure - but the audio engine can shuffle things around UP to the buffer delay.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby JamesSimpson » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:06 pm

narcoman wrote:
thenaturallevel wrote:
I always thought that this wasn't true. If a plugin caused a 1 sample delay it was always a 1 sample delay regardless of the buffer size.

sure - but the audio engine can shuffle things around UP to the buffer delay.

I am well confused, does it shuffle things around? Or does it not?

I appear to have spouted my mouth off elsewhere saying that it does, (i've always just used 1sample or nearly zero sample plugins and anything that uses a bigger delay i've used the time adjuster plugin.
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware

Postby narcoman » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:43 pm

youve got me thinking now. I'll do an experiment tomorrow.
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