You are here

All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

For everything after the recording stage: hardware/software and how you use it.

All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby Elephone » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:56 pm

(...well, all electroacoustic and acoustic libraries should be anyway.)

I've been looking for bone dry, multisampled instruments for the last few weeks, but most are not detailed enough and/or have at least a small amount of effect on them, which makes them sound too 'slick' for my taste.

To me, its a bit like someone adding salt to your meal when you can simply add it at the table.

I heard some examples of Vienna Symphonic Orchestra library, but there is still some slight reverb, which is enough to give the tone a kind of shiney surface or 'blurring', which you could add later anyway, but can't remove!

If they do this to make them sound more appealing, why don't they just do a Kontakt player demo with convolution reverb on instead of applying unnecessary effects that limits your choice?

As far as multisampling is concerned... better to offer fewer instruments and more samples per instrument!
Elephone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:00 am

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby desmond » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:13 pm

Yes! I want that 88,000 round-robin multisampled triangle sample set and cannot compose a tune until I get it...
User avatar
desmond
Jedi Poster
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:00 am

mu:zines | music magazine archive | Latest: MT Dec 90
Needed: SOS April 1993. Can you donate your copy to complete the early SOS archive?


Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby Elephone » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:19 pm

Well yes, even a triangle (depending on the triangle). I have one that produces different overtones (which often become dominant) depending on how you strike it.

...I was only excluding electronic keyboard presets, but then again... I'd even like them to have some 'fading battery' or circuit-bent effects!
Elephone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:00 am

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby Andi » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:54 pm

Record 'em in an anechoic chamber, or even better - a vacuum!
User avatar
Andi
Frequent Poster
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:00 pm
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby narcoman » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:43 pm

I agree that they shouldn't be "processed" like the appalling junk that comes out of East West. VSL is pretty good in that department - no apparent EQ or other processing, just the reverb in the room.

It'd be tough to sample violins in an anechoic chamber though. Intonation would be a bitch and the sound would be terrible since one of the ways a player works is responding to the surrounding acoustic.

there are some excellent sample/model hybrid VSTi out there with the sampling done in such a chamber.
narcoman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3439
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:00 pm
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby Andi » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:45 pm

narcoman wrote:
It'd be tough to sample violins in an anechoic chamber though. Intonation would be a bitch and the sound would be terrible since one of the ways a player works is responding to the surrounding acoustic.


In which case sampling them totally dry just isn't an option - you have at least room or you don't. Come to think of it, you'd need a totally non-reflective mic and stand and lead, and a totally non-reflective violin, and a totally non-reflective violinist. Cool
User avatar
Andi
Frequent Poster
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:00 pm
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby oggyb » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:01 am

narcoman wrote:...like the appalling junk that comes out of East West...
I bet you've used it.

I agree, too much reverb on sample libraries. Also too much noise, but can't do much about that.
User avatar
oggyb
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby narcoman » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:58 am

indeed. And EQ'ed by someone in an attempt to get it "ready to slot straight into your music".... terrible. Like the guitar rig stuff compared to a real amp (although at least thats useable).

East West would do very well to ask those of us who actually MIX score "what would be the best option?".
narcoman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3439
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:00 pm
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby narcoman » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:59 am

Andi wrote:
In which case sampling them totally dry just isn't an option - you have at least room or you don't. Come to think of it, you'd need a totally non-reflective mic and stand and lead, and a totally non-reflective violin, and a totally non-reflective violinist. Cool

calm...breathe...ssshhhhhh.
narcoman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3439
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:00 pm
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby Elephone » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:44 am

On the VSL discription it says "Every instrument has been meticulously recorded in stereo". I wonder of this is worth it when there will be convolution reverb added (normally for an orchestra).

Since the instruments have been recorded at quite some distance, which allows the room reverb to smother much of the detail, I wonder if they could have used the stereo track better to carry two mono signals of the same sample -one at some distance and another closer mic'd (to get more vivid detail if required).
Elephone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:00 am

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby hollowsun » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:08 pm

James101 wrote:On the VSL discription it says "Every instrument has been meticulously recorded in stereo". I wonder of this is worth it when there will be convolution reverb added (normally for an orchestra).
A violin, cello, oboe, whatever, might be essentially 'mono' (they're not actually) but string and woodwind sections are stereo. Then there's the placement of the sections and the stereo spread of the whole orchestra to consider if you want them to have a natural stereo spread when tracked.

I think if you had mono, bone dry samples of such instruments, they'd sound very unrealistic when artificially panned and artificial reverb applied.

And sample devs can take as many samples as you'd like them to...

Then you can come back here and complain about the length of time it takes a library to load/save, the insanity of having to buy even more storage to hold it (and/or that it actually ships on a drive ... or 50 DVDs to install) and, of course, you'd complain about the price which would have to increase substantially to meet your somewhat hypothetical specs.

And "dry as a bone"?

The majority of the market would then complain about how 'dead' and artificial they sound! Image
User avatar
hollowsun
Frequent Poster
Posts: 2122
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:00 am

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby desmond » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:25 pm

Yep - that's why a variety of sample libs is nice, as you can make the choices between the approaches of the various devs for what suits you and/or your material the best.
User avatar
desmond
Jedi Poster
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:00 am

mu:zines | music magazine archive | Latest: MT Dec 90
Needed: SOS April 1993. Can you donate your copy to complete the early SOS archive?


Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby Elephone » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:12 pm

"A violin, cello, oboe, whatever, might be essentially 'mono' (they're not actually) but string and woodwind sections are stereo. Then there's the placement of the sections and the stereo spread of the whole orchestra to consider if you want them to have a natural stereo spread when tracked."

For sections that is true, but I think producers would be better combining many solo instruments.

"I think if you had mono, bone dry samples of such instruments, they'd sound very unrealistic when artificially panned and artificial reverb applied."

Depends what you mean by artificial reverb. Top notch carefully selected convolution reverb taken from measured vectors should sound convincing enough.

"Then you can come back here and complain about the length of time it takes a library to load/save, the insanity of having to buy even more storage to hold it (and/or that it actually ships on a drive"

Well, I haven't complained because I have an i7 x64 bitch. Also, I only believe in dealing with an instrument at a time and combining them. I'd rather have detailed single instruments and put the effort in.

"... or 50 DVDs to install) and, of course, you'd complain about the price which would have to increase substantially to meet your somewhat hypothetical specs."

No because VSL was just given as an example of reverb, I actually only require detailed, dry solo instruments, which I combine to small ensembles.

"And "dry as a bone"? The majority of the market would then complain about how 'dead' and artificial they sound".

But there are some instruments recorded as dry, and they don't sound more lifeless. How does reverb on individual samples bring them to life anyway? Reverb applied overall maybe.
Elephone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:00 am

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby Martin Walker » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:04 pm

narcoman wrote:It'd be tough to sample violins in an anechoic chamber though. Intonation would be a bitch and the sound would be terrible since one of the ways a player works is responding to the surrounding acoustic.


Hi narcoman!

I was sent some orchestral phrases recorded in an anechoic chamber (brass section, solo woodwind, and complete string orchestra), and you're right, it sounds most odd, and the players don't sound at all comfortable without the reassurance of some nice reflections from nearby objects

These files have proved really useful for auditioning reverb libraries (convolution or algorithmic), but not a lot else


Martin
User avatar
Martin Walker
Moderator
Posts: 9692
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:44 am
Location: Cornwall, UK

Steampunk & Synth News | Mad Scientist Mode


Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby hollowsun » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:35 pm

James101 wrote:For sections that is true, but I think producers would be better combining many solo instruments.
But orchestral players play differently when together than when playing in isolation on their own.

Then there's the issue of each player having their own different style (for strings, bowing, vibrato, etc.) and that's before you consider each player having instruments with subtle tonal differences from different manufacturers. Even small details such as the make and age of a violinist's bow, whether it's made of pernambuco or carbon fibre or the reed that woodwind players use, etc., can make a subtle difference and when these are all combined in a section, we get a tone that blends this diversity. Layering samples from the same player on top of themselves as many times as required is just not going to sound right. Unless you're suggesting that sample lib developers record each and every player of the orchestra in isolation in a totally dry acoustic environment...

That ain't gonna happen any time soon and would probably sound horribly artificial if it was.
User avatar
hollowsun
Frequent Poster
Posts: 2122
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:00 am

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby narcoman » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:39 pm

James101 wrote:On the VSL discription it says "Every instrument has been meticulously recorded in stereo". I wonder of this is worth it when there will be convolution reverb added (normally for an orchestra).

Since the instruments have been recorded at quite some distance, which allows the room reverb to smother much of the detail, I wonder if they could have used the stereo track better to carry two mono signals of the same sample -one at some distance and another closer mic'd (to get more vivid detail if required).


Maybe we're talking about two different libraries - the ones I use for mock ups from VSL don't seem very reverberant. Which set are you using?


MArtin : I bet it did!!

Hollowsun - yeah too right! Intonation would be terrible. It's already bad enough with a quartet. Maybe you should do a sample orchestra.... you are bloody good at the stuff you do supply!
narcoman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3439
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:00 pm
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....


Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby Elephone » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:05 pm

"It'd be tough to sample violins in an anechoic chamber though. Intonation would be a bitch and the sound would be terrible since one of the ways a player works is responding to the surrounding acoustic."

Where there be a will, there be a way. We've been to the moon! Probably. But really, let's just say as dry as possible then. There shouldn't be reverb tails on samples. That's my opinion anyway.

"But orchestral players play differently when together than when playing in isolation on their own."

Yes, they play with less accuracy because they can't hear themselves as well, and (free pitch instruments) try to tune to each other more. Many solo instruments offer a variety of bowings styles and violins. Companies should really offer a variety of solo instuments as a feature. Perhaps they will. About the rest... there will of course be limitations with current situation, but thinking of individual 'players' is what you get in the real world anyway. At least you don't have to feed them. In future, software will probably take this approach, combining individual 'players' into full orchestras intelligently.

P.S....

...I just had to 'Agree' to the SOS Forum rules thing... probably because I called my computer a "b****"? Is this a new 'computer rights' motion I've not heard about?
Elephone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:00 am

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby planetnine » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:32 pm

I like the Superior Drummer ethos: no reverb or processing, but various room or ambient mics provided in addition to the close mic signals (indeed the "lost studios" library is sold on the sound of the studios used).

Room sound, "proper" reverb...

>
User avatar
planetnine
Regular
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: lincolnshire government experimentation zone

Planet Nine, Lincoln, UK.


Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby JamesSimpson » Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:36 pm

Erm, the east west stuff does have this if you buy the full package.

You can add room mics, less or more, although some of it does sound processed in otherways, (compression, EQ)

I've not had too much problem with east west although it does have a "sound"
User avatar
JamesSimpson
Frequent Poster
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby narcoman » Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:53 pm

JamesSimpson wrote:Erm, the east west stuff does have this if you buy the full package.

You can add room mics, less or more, although some of it does sound processed in otherways, (compression, EQ)

I've not had too much problem with east west although it does have a "sound"


shame it's not the sound of strings or brass....


oh yes I did !!!
narcoman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3439
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:00 pm
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby planetnine » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:33 am

narcoman wrote:
JamesSimpson wrote:
I've not had too much problem with east west although it does have a "sound"


shame it's not the sound of strings or brass....


oh yes I did !!!

So you don't like it then Narc, say what you mean fella...



>
User avatar
planetnine
Regular
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: lincolnshire government experimentation zone

Planet Nine, Lincoln, UK.


Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby JamesSimpson » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:06 pm

narcoman wrote:
JamesSimpson wrote:Erm, the east west stuff does have this if you buy the full package.

You can add room mics, less or more, although some of it does sound processed in otherways, (compression, EQ)

I've not had too much problem with east west although it does have a "sound"


shame it's not the sound of strings or brass....


oh yes I did !!!

heh
User avatar
JamesSimpson
Frequent Poster
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby oggyb » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:04 pm

Well I think the moral of the story is record real musicians and you won't have that problem.

Oh wait. First you need to hire the best sounding venue you can, then. . .

As sick as I am of "recognising" the EWQLSO samples on telly they do sound good in a mix. You just can't go after the totally authentic aesthetic because, well, you're not going to get it anyway unless you record the piece yourself.
User avatar
oggyb
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby Elteto » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:42 pm

narcoman wrote:like the appalling junk that comes out of East West.


Well, many composers seem to find that "appalling junk" useful enough to incorporate into final mixes of soundtracks for television and motion pictures. Whatever works for a score, I guess. I do not see them all complaining on these forums, maybe they are too busy working and being successful (and I do not only mean financially) composing with those libraries. I am not an EWQL fanboy, I just try to form balanced opinions, and EWQL libraries are not exactly completely useless.

As far as people being "sick" of recognizing EastWest samples in scores, that sounds somewhat elitist and just shows how much we have started to take for granted the advances made in sampling technology. We always MUST have something new and different than the other guys have. We always MUST have a fresh, tweaked sample, or we will be labeled unoriginal. Goodness forbid someone used a stock patch from a synth, there is no way the sound designers for that product could have possibly created a useful patch out of the box, right?

Come on. [SARCASM] If we followed the same line of reasoning, then should we not get sick of always recognizing violins in symphonic compositions? And that awful and repetitive use of DRUMS in rock! And do not even get me started on electric guitars! Must rock bands ALWAYS use them? Then the 808s and 909s in electronica. Really? After all these years we still cannot come up with new, better, fresher drum samples? Bass guitars? Blah. So last century. Piano? For what? The other guy already used that on an album, therefore I cannot possibly use it ever again, or someone on a forum may sneer at me! [/SARCASM]

On a serious note, I just do not find that one line of products is simply junk, and I do not mind if composers repeatedly use a specific sample library.

To each his or her own.
Elteto
Regular
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby oggyb » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:51 pm

I meant that recognising a specific sample from a specific library usually spoils the immersion for me, not that I think "god, what a loser for using that patch".

Just had to clarify that before you tear me a new one.
User avatar
oggyb
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby hollowsun » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:29 pm

Elteto wrote:Then the 808s and 909s in electronica. Really? After all these years we still cannot come up with new, better, fresher drum samples?
Sarcasm enabled or not, you have a point there, in fairness!
User avatar
hollowsun
Frequent Poster
Posts: 2122
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:00 am

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby narcoman » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:59 pm

Elteto wrote:
Well, many composers seem to find that "appalling junk" useful enough to incorporate into final mixes of soundtracks for television and motion pictures.

I mix or produce {I do not compose} score for a living. I've mixed over 140 movies, countless TV, games and records. EW hasn't made to final mix on anything i've worked.

I do hear them from time to time on TV.

The playing is okay, the editing is generally fine - but the recording and EQing are rank amateur. Awful. That, unfortunatley, doesn't seem to preclude their use!

Elteto wrote:
Whatever works for a score, I guess. I do not see them all complaining on these forums, maybe they are too busy working and being successful (and I do not only mean financially) composing with those libraries.

I do. See them complain that is. The EQing is practically unworkable in quality work. I'm anti-sample at the best of times although VSL and LASS are okay. The EW stuff just sucks. Success and use of such things means nothing - otherwise we'd all think Katy Perry is the pinnacle of current music.

Elteto wrote:
I am not an EWQL fanboy, I just try to form balanced opinions, and EWQL libraries are not exactly completely useless.

They're okay in pop actually, but that's not my realm. I reckon I'm the one forming the balance of opinions - about time someone said what they sound like.

Elteto wrote:
As far as people being "sick" of recognizing EastWest samples in scores, that sounds somewhat elitist and just shows how much we have started to take for granted the advances made in sampling technology.

Sick of them? No. I said I think they're crap. Crap they day they came out. Mybe sick of hearing the same 10 samples of C5 on a violin group.

Great control in Play, though, with the multi-mics, but it's great control of crap. The issues are with the recording and post production not the implementation or the "sampling tech". It's become the norm to accept poor quality - if it's elitist to despise mediocrity - then so be it.

Elteto wrote:
We always MUST have something new and different than the other guys have. We always MUST have a fresh, tweaked sample, or we will be labeled unoriginal.

You're damn right you should. I cannot stand lazy musicians. Other wise what's the point?

Elteto wrote: Goodness forbid someone used a stock patch from a synth, there is no way the sound designers for that product could have possibly created a useful patch out of the box, right?

Yeah - apart from it's lazy and hackneyed. The musical equivalent of using stock images in movies. Lazy. Lazy... L L Lazy.
Elteto wrote:
On a serious note, I just do not find that one line of products is simply junk, and I do not mind if composers repeatedly use a specific sample library.

Music is not just composition. It's composition, performance, recording and production. At the very least it's the first two, in all it's guises. I'm fundamentally opposed to the notion that it's only about the writing.

Having had the luxury of recording hundreds of orchestral works, sample libraries don't come close. HOWEVER - that isn't the argument. I don't mind them not coming close as long as the recorded sound is good. That's all.
narcoman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3439
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:00 pm
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby hollowsun » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:18 pm

narcoman wrote:otherwise we'd all think Katy Perry is the pinnacle of current music.
You mean she's not??!!!
User avatar
hollowsun
Frequent Poster
Posts: 2122
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:00 am

Re: All sample libraries should be multisampled-to-hell ...and DRY AS A BONE!

Postby desmond » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:25 pm

It's probably not the place to comment on Katy's pinnacles here...
User avatar
desmond
Jedi Poster
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:00 am

mu:zines | music magazine archive | Latest: MT Dec 90
Needed: SOS April 1993. Can you donate your copy to complete the early SOS archive?


Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest