You are here

KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

For everything after the recording stage: hardware/software and how you use it.

KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:08 pm

So... I just replaced my Mackie 824s with a pair of VXT 8s. It was a rather rushed choice as one of our 824s packed in during a session and we needed to replace them for the following day. I'd used VXTs in another studio and was pleased with how they translated, so I've always had my eye on them and went ahead and ordered from DV.

That was on the 8th of Feb so 26 days ago. Today, I thought someone's amp was rattling like mad somewhere but low and behold, it turns out to be the right monitor! :headbang:... Seems to be the tweeter (or tweeter amp?) A very fizzy distortion that even sounds digital. Desk outputs have been swapped round but the same monitor has the same problem.

So now I'm back where I was 26 days ago!

I'm guessing (hoping) I'll be covered for returns at DV (although it could prove a headache like it has in the past!) and it was purchase on a credit card. But now, I'm wondering if i even like the VXTs at all! Particularly after this. And having to return them asap and get replacements asap (in the same price range) is stressing me out somewhat!

The main, perhaps only thing I don't really like about the VXTs is they do seem a tad fatiguing to work on after a while -something people I've heard mentioned in the past. I do like the richness and apparent tightness of the low end on them though.

I'm completely unprepared for this but I really need to get replacements ordered by tomorrow! At least I had some previous experience with the VXTs but I have no idea what else to look at in the £900 bracket. Monitors haven't been something I've paid much attention to. Once you've got the ones you want, that's kind of it. Unlike preamps etc where you're constantly keeping up with them and know what's out there.

So... Queue horrible, cliche question.... What active, accurate monitors are out there for £900ish that i should consider? Really pushed to go beyond 900 but still keen to hear any thoughts.

Thanks guys. :x :headbang:
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby John Willett » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:09 am

At that sort of price I would go for the Neumann KH120A - retail at £1,199 a pair (£599.50 each) including VAT (so, if you are VAT registered.......)

Not sure what the street price is - but these do seem to be the top of the tree at the moment in this price bracket.
User avatar
John Willett
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4217
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Oxfordshire UK

John
Sound-Link ProAudio
Circle Sound Services
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:43 am

I'd +1 that. Although they are physically small they kick well above their size and the quality is very impressive, bery neutral, and not at all fatiguing. And if you need more volume or bottom end, a matching sub can be added later.

Hugh
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 17515
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:00 pm
Location: Worcestershire, UK

Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:10 am

Thanks guys, but this is horrible! :frown:. I'm shopping completely in the dark. And even just going over by £100 at £1,119 isn't going to be easy! We've lost out on a lot of work because of this (session cancelled today and I'm sure tomorrow may be the same)

Funnily enough the Neumanns are among the only monitors that have caught my attention lately! Intriguing that you should mention them now too.

My only worry now is - I've seen a few references to the sub... Is that really needed or are they pleasing enough on their own in the bottom end? The bottom is something I really need as I can be flicking from a Rock/Pop project to Electronic, bass heavy/subby stuff all the time.

:? :? :? :? :? :? :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

ADVICE PLEASE :) - Do you think I have enough time to sit on this for the afternoon before contacting DV? We took receipt of the KRKs 27 days ago and payment went through 29 days ago. I'd like to have a plan in my head before getting in touch.
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Richie Royale » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:13 am

I would contact DV. 4 weeks isn't reasonable wear and tear.

Maybe consider the AE22s? Might not have enough low end for your applications, but certainly a good monitor.
User avatar
Richie Royale
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4466
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Bristol, England.

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:44 am

Richie Royale wrote:I would contact DV. 4 weeks isn't reasonable wear and tear.

Maybe consider the AE22s? Might not have enough low end for your applications, but certainly a good monitor.

Thanks Rich. Yeah its not on at all. I'll need to bite my tongue as there was a big problem with ordering the KRKs from them in the first place. Its maybe not DVs fault, I know the buck ultimately stops with KRK, but the seller has to assume some responsibility too.

So the AE22s are a bit bass light you think?
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:50 am

I should have said its a balance of say 70/30 between Rock/Pop and the Really subby, electro work that I get so I'm not a complete bass head 100% of the time ;) EDIT - oohhh.... just saw the 22s only go down to 60hz. That may be an issue. Mind you... At least they actually HAVE some numbers with the,m. What do the Neumanns go down to?
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:03 pm

It depends if you want something that flaps the trousers and reorganises the internal organs of you and your clients, of if you want something that allows you to hear whats going on and deal with it. Both the AE22 and the KH120 have a decent bass response -- I wouldn't describe either as bass light -- and both will let you hear exactly what's going on. But neither will blow dry your hair each time the kick drum is thumped -- at least not without a sub.

To my ears, KRKs tend to be a bit boom and tizz, with an emphasis on both that makes them initially impressive but ultimately fatiguing. The KH120s and the AE22s are more honest speakers, for slightly different reasons. I know plenty of people who are happy mixing rock/pop on both without issue.

Hugh
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 17515
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:00 pm
Location: Worcestershire, UK

Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:48 pm

Thanks Hugh.

I know its all numbers on paper but I'm a tad worried... The VXTs go all the way down to 37hz. Thats a pretty major drop from only 60 odd hz. I know its different on test so, do you think I'll hear a major drop in the bottom end with either the AEs or Neumanns compared to the VXTs?

It's using sub kicks, sculpting sub basses etc that I'm worried about. I've used KRK Rokits (the biggest they do. 6s?) and just couldn't use them without a sub as I couldn't tell what was going on down there.

I also need to get on to DV as soon as I can think of a suitable replacement! :?
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby benniferj » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:50 pm

Why have you not already called DV to see if they can ship out a replacement VXT on special delivery for tomorrow?
benniferj
Regular
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:51 pm

I should also add that i found the bottom end not too bad on my Mackie 824s.
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:56 pm

benniferj wrote:Why have you not already called DV to see if they can ship out a replacement VXT on special delivery for tomorrow?

Good point but I'd much rather get these out and new ones in asap. Also worried about the 30 day mark coming up in a couple of days. Plus its been a bit of a nightmare in the past to work with DV (Just my experience, sorry) so I'm not sure it would be as easy as - ''yeah sure, here's another one. Just send that and the other 2 back when you're done and we'll then ship out another pair altogether when you've decided what ones you want'' :roll: I could be wrong.

I've set a target to call them before 2pm though. It'd be great if I could come to some plan in my head first.
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:03 pm

Persuazion wrote:I know its all numbers on paper but I'm a tad worried... The VXTs go all the way down to 37hz.

That's 37Hz at -3dB, below which it drops like a brick because it's ported. The KH120 is quoted as 52Hz at -3dB and is also ported. The AE22 is quoted as having a -3dB LF point at 60Hz, but it's a sealed cabinet and has a very slow roll off.

The differences are roughly a musical fouth/fifth (E1 to A1 and Bb1)... but the roll offs are such that I doub't you'd notice much difference in LF extension in practice. Added to which, they're all capable of exciting your room modes which will cloud the issue nicely.

I think you'll notice the different quality of bass rather than the extension.

hugh
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 17515
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:00 pm
Location: Worcestershire, UK

Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:43 pm

Thanks Hugh that's great.

Well the AE22s come in under budget. But, thinking about it, +£100 isn't much if there's a notable quality (for want of a better word) difference between the AE22s and Neumanns.

It seems you, Hugh are more swayed by the KHs? Is there one of the two that would provide the 'lushest', fullest bass response in your opinion?
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:13 pm

The solidity and germanic engineering of the KH would sway it for me. AE22s are great, and I'm a huge fan of sealed box cabinets because of the much better quality of bass, gentler roll off, and greater extension.

The KH120 is also a remarkable speaker in that it delivers far more than you would think possible in such a compact box, and is wonderfully refined and revealing.

But I would strongly advise a personal audition as monitors are quite a personal choice, and I don't know what your expectations and requirements are.

Compared to the KRKs, I think you'll probably find both initially lacking in bass power because they don't 'thump' like the KRK does. For me, that's a good thing (for a monitor) and I think once you're familiar with them you'll actually find it easier to make descisions about the bottom end beacuse they are both more accurate -- albeit in slightly different ways.

But if you need to 'feel' the bass then you might want to look at alternatives, or think about adding a sub. But you'd be hard pressed to get better for the budget you've set.

hugh
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 17515
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:00 pm
Location: Worcestershire, UK

Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:22 pm

Right.... Well I'm now armed with some good info. Add to that that I've noticed the single KH 120s are in stock while the AEs are not.

I may well have to go for the Neumanns and see how I get on.

Do you think I'd be cheeky, considering there have been a few bumpy moments on DVs part throughout this transaction, to say I may well have to change these yet again after a trial?

Thanks for all the info guys. I'll et on the blower asap.
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:39 pm

Doh! :headbang: Just realized the KH 120s are actually £200 more! Maths was never my strong point :blush:
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby mjfe2 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:42 pm

At that price is it worth considering Quested S6R's too?
User avatar
mjfe2
Frequent Poster
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:00 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:13 pm

I'm all sorted folks!

Got a nice deal on a pair of AE22s and Pro Sub from a nice fellow SOS'er! Haven't had a chance to install them yet.
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby John Willett » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:43 am

Persuazion wrote:Doh! :headbang: Just realized the KH 120s are actually £200 more! Maths was never my strong point :blush:

The DV price for a pair of KH120As is only £1,078.00 - so you are saving about £120 off the normal pro-user price. :D
User avatar
John Willett
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4217
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Oxfordshire UK

John
Sound-Link ProAudio
Circle Sound Services
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Nites » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:45 pm

I bought a pair of KRK's Rokits based off a SOS review which said they were none fatiguing and had a quite flat frequency response. After reading this I'm now regretting and should have probably bought Yamaha MSP5's instead for the same price. My only reference at the time were headphones and hifi speakers.

But anyway why are KRK's so popular at trade shows? Particularly at synth demonstrations.
Nites
Poster
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:00 pm

 


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby James Perrett » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:16 pm

Nites wrote:
But anyway why are KRK's so popular at trade shows? Particularly at synth demonstrations.

Possibly because KRK lend demo models to other exhibitors?

James.
James Perrett
Moderator
Posts: 5991
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The wilds of Hampshire

JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.co.uk


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Persuazion » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:46 am

James Perrett wrote:
Nites wrote:
But anyway why are KRK's so popular at trade shows? Particularly at synth demonstrations.

Possibly because KRK lend demo models to other exhibitors?

James.

And after my experiences, I'd say they do sound instantly impressive (the VXTs anyway) so that may be a factor in that decision. I'm loving how 'un impressive' these AE22s sound. Rather comforting :lol:
Persuazion
Frequent Poster
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby MartinJG » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:33 pm


Hugh

I have a pair of AE22's. Great monitors but I have a problem with what sounds like digital 'buzzing'. I have an M-Audio 2496 card. My old P4 was fine but I now have a 2500K Sandy Bridge and have had all sorts of noise problems (squeeks, buzzes, you name it)which I believe are the well known PCI/Sandy Bridge issues. I have disabled the EIST settings etc on the BIOS but this has made no difference to the AE22's. The odd thing is that my old Roland MA-8 media style monitors are fine. Is this down to lack of shielding on the AE22's? Driving me mad. I have pretty much exhausted most of the standard diagnostics tests with no luck. Even tried running the AE22's through the on board sound card Realtek (ASUS P8P67LE)and the noise gets worse which suggests it is not a PCI issue? I would add that the buzzing goes when I use a cheap Skytronic isolator but it also wrecks the dynamics on my monitors. Baby and the bathwater syndrome. Is the only remaining option to try a decent ground loop braid breaker box? I am worried that this could also muzzle my AE22's which are very sensitive things. Any ideas?

Many thanks

Martin
MartinJG
Regular
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby James Perrett » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:22 am

Martin - if the AE22's have balanced inputs then you need to make up some phono to XLR (or jack) pseudo balanced cables. Connect the tip of the phono plug to pin 2 on the XLR and the outer of the phono plug to pin 3 of the XLR using the 2 cores of a 2 core + screen cable. Connect the screen of the cable to pin 1 of the XLR but leave it disconnected at the phono end.

James.
James Perrett
Moderator
Posts: 5991
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The wilds of Hampshire

JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.co.uk


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Zukan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:30 am

Persuazion wrote:I'm all sorted folks!

Got a nice deal on a pair of AE22s and Pro Sub from a nice fellow SOS'er! Haven't had a chance to install them yet.

Make sure to calibrate sensibly Persuazion. Don't go for nut rattling sub levels. Go for accuracy m8. Personally, I'm not down with separate systems but if calibrated properly they can offer great referencing.
User avatar
Zukan
Moderator
Posts: 6264
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:00 pm

Samplecraze   Stretch That Note Masterclasses


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby MartinJG » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:56 am

James Perrett wrote:Martin - if the AE22's have balanced inputs then you need to make up some phono to XLR (or jack) pseudo balanced cables. Connect the tip of the phono plug to pin 2 on the XLR and the outer of the phono plug to pin 3 of the XLR using the 2 cores of a 2 core + screen cable. Connect the screen of the cable to pin 1 of the XLR but leave it disconnected at the phono end.

James.

James

Thanks for getting back with this suggestion. Is this a shielding remedy? Just for the record, I put together a ground loop box per kind instructions from ef37a (Dave) without any success. In fact the buzz was worse. I am just not sure this is a groundloop problem. The buzzing seems to be more digital than ground loop hum. Also, the noise is worse when I am in the DAW. The larger the template, the louder the noise. Click on W7 desktop and there is very little noise. If I click on the menus in Reaper, again, the noise diminishes. It does seem to be video related. Reducing the buffer on my 2496 reduces the noise but it is still bad. The monitors also appear to pick up signals when the mouse is moved. I will give this a try though.

The only successful cure to the buzz is when I use a Skytronic isolator. Trouble is, it also appears to filter the performance of the monitors. They sound enclosed and lose their dynamics.

Regards

Martin
MartinJG
Regular
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Richie Royale » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:08 pm

Have a read of Martin Walker's thread about ground loops.

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showf ... t=1#222392
User avatar
Richie Royale
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4466
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Bristol, England.

Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby James Perrett » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:30 am

The pseudo balanced cables break the ground loop while not affecting the audio quality in the way that your Skytronic isolator probably does. While ground loops used to cause hum back in the days when everything was analogue, nowadays they're more likely to cause hissing and clicking sounds in systems where there are digital devices.

I'm not sure why Dave's box didn't work - it might help if you post some detailed photos of the internals so that we can see if you've made any wiring mistakes.

James.
James Perrett
Moderator
Posts: 5991
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The wilds of Hampshire

JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.co.uk


Re: KRK VXT disaster... Put me off now...

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:17 am

MartinJG wrote: I put together a ground loop box per kind instructions from ef37a (Dave) without any success. In fact the buzz was worse. I am just not sure this is a groundloop problem. The buzzing seems to be more digital than ground loop hum. Also, the noise is worse when I am in the DAW. The larger the template, the louder the noise. Click on W7 desktop and there is very little noise. If I click on the menus in Reaper, again, the noise diminishes. It does seem to be video related. Reducing the buffer on my 2496 reduces the noise but it is still bad. The monitors also appear to pick up signals when the mouse is moved.

It does sound like it is probably a ground loop problem. The kind of noise you hear depends on the noise source, but the fact you hear it is usually because it gets in via a ground loop.

I suspect 'Dave's Box' is probably a dual transformer isolator, and that should work very well... but the devil is in the detail and grounding errors in the box construction could make matters worse rather than better. The fact that the skytronic works proves the point -- but it sounds poor because the transformers are pretty naff.

It is also possible that the situation is compounded by direct interference from the monitor screen power supplies or the computer's power supply. It really is important to keep mains wiring -- and especially any in-line power supply units -- well away from the audio wiring.

The pseudo-balanced cable approach is an alternative solution to breaking ground loops, but relies on having balanced inputs and may not be as effective as a good transformer isolator.

hugh
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 17515
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:00 pm
Location: Worcestershire, UK

Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest