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Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

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Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Pitchfork » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:51 am

In my quest to have the same files open on my PC Windows XP for editing, and sitting in Sound Forge and also open in Reaper on a Mac OS X, I decided to try this format as it *seems* the only one so far (WAV and AIFF play funny) that allows a single file to be open on two different platforms?

I record and edit in SF and place the same file (whilst still open on the PC) into the arrangement in the Mac for sequencing..

So far so good, but I know nothing about OGG Vorbis - is it like MP3? is it as good quality as WAV or AIFF?

I get 4 options when saving :

96Kbps
128Kbps
350Kbps
VBR Quality 4

Would the last one be up to wav standard? and I suppose I could convert or re-save my last mixdown as wav when i know its the master and doesn't need any file sharing
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Richie Royale » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:03 am

What problems are you experiencing with WAV and AIFF? These formats are the standard ones used to exchange files between operating systems, though I have encountered people who have had some issues with AIFF on a PC.
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Pitchfork » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:09 am

WAV and AIFF are fine, but I'm talking about using the same file open at the same time on a PC and Mac..

This is where it gets funny, and I still havent found a workaround for this - I would prefer to edit and leave open my files in SF with my PC plug ins, but sequence the files on a Mac in Reaper as a DAW.

This way I would just use a PC for SoundForge and as an editing machine, and Mac as my sequencer.. I was told that there could be a workaround to use an Ext Editor in Reaper but via an Ethernet Cable (so files would open on a seperate machine!) but have no idea if that would work..?

I would love to use WAV or AIFF as they are the standard but they hate being open in 2 places at once.!

EDIT - Ogg now hates it too
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Richie Royale » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:19 am

Ok. I'm not sure any file would be happy being open in two places at once, but I am far from experienced or knowledgable about these things. It seems SF is coming to the Mac soon, so perhaps you might be able to resolve this problem soon.
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:21 am

It's a lossy format, therefore not even to be considered for a work-in-progress. It's a possibility as a distribution medium if small file-size is more important than ultimate quality, but it suffers from being non-standard - a lot of people won't have the required software to play it. And, despite the opinion of some vociferous disciples, it isn't really any better than the more common lossy compression systems.

I'm unclear exactly what you're trying to do. But the fact that two programs can access the same file simultaneously suggests to me that they're NOT actually working on the same file - they've both decompressed the same OGG file into their working format, and are working on that temporary copy. And continual re-compression gives cumulative quality loss.

Your last sentence "I suppose I could convert or re-save my last mixdown as wav when i know its the master and doesn't need any file sharing" makes me wonder if you retain some lingering hope that quality thrown away by lossy compression can ever be regained? It can't.
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Pitchfork » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:39 am

Exalted Wombat wrote:It's a lossy format, therefore not even to be considered for a work-in-progress. It's a possibility as a distribution medium if small file-size is more important than ultimate quality, but it suffers from being non-standard - a lot of people won't have the required software to play it. And, despite the opinion of some vociferous disciples, it isn't really any better than the more common lossy compression systems.

I'm unclear exactly what you're trying to do. But the fact that two programs can access the same file simultaneously suggests to me that they're NOT actually working on the same file - they've both decompressed the same OGG file into their working format, and are working on that temporary copy. And continual re-compression gives cumulative quality loss.

Your last sentence "I suppose I could convert or re-save my last mixdown as wav when i know its the master and doesn't need any file sharing" makes me wonder if you retain some lingering hope that quality thrown away by lossy compression can ever be regained? It can't.

Yes I think OGG is out of the question now..

It's just I'd prefer to work with WAV or AIFF as I have done for years, but open and edited in 2 places at once, really screws everything up..
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:50 am

Pitchfork wrote:It's just I'd prefer to work with WAV or AIFF as I have done for years, but open and edited in 2 places at once, really screws everything up..

It's a fairly basic computer principle that if one program is working on a file, another one can't be. The programs that pretend to actually work on local copies and attempt to aggregate the changes when saving. That can work for a database, but isn't really appropriate to an audio file.
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Pitchfork » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:53 am

Basically It was taking the idea of a Sequencer that then allows an External editor to work on the same file, and throw it back and forth (like many do) but I wanted to try with seperate computers, each designed for sequencing and the other for editing..

Obviously this is impossible..
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby James Perrett » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:55 am

Pitchfork wrote:
It's just I'd prefer to work with WAV or AIFF as I have done for years, but open and edited in 2 places at once, really screws everything up..

You could do this quite happily if you used the same computer for both programs. I have Adobe Audition set as my external editor in Reaper and it seems very happy to give up control of the file when I tell it that I want to edit the file.

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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:30 pm

Pitchfork wrote:WAV and AIFF are fine, but I'm talking about using the same file open at the same time on a PC and Mac..


I can't think of any operating system that would be happy with this. Having the same file open in two places simultaneously leaves a whole load of ambiguities and potential disasters when files are being written back.

I think the issue here us your work flow rather than the system itself. There's nothing wrong with using one progam for editing and another for sequencing. Just make sure you close the file is the editor when you're done editing, and vice versa -- which is what happens automatically behind the scenes if you call a separate editing program from within a DAW.

And Ogg is lossy and not a good idea for content creation purposes anyway.

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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby chris... » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:19 pm

As has been said, Ogg Vorbis is a lossy format which is unencumbered by licensing restrictions that apply to MP3.

Pitchfork wrote:In my quest to have the same files open on my PC Windows XP for editing, and sitting in Sound Forge and also open in Reaper on a Mac OS X, I decided to try this format as it *seems* the only one so far (WAV and AIFF play funny) that allows a single file to be open on two different platforms?
That must be a quirk of some software you're using. There is nothing fundamental about Ogg Vorbis as a format that enables it to be used this way, while WAV/AIFF can't.
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Mixedup » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:19 pm

+1. A database or spreadsheet typically locks any records/fields/cells that are currently being edited by one user, but makes them visible to other users. It's perfectly possible to extend this principle to audio, where only one application is being used to edit the file, and all others are being used to playback. That's why we can all listen to the same track on someone's iTunes account at the same time...

I can't see why you need to work like this. There are plenty of decent audio editors on the Mac now - eg. Audition, Audacity, Wavelab, Spectralayers... And Reaper allows you to use third-party editors in the same way that Cubase VST used to work many years ago — I used to have Cubase and Wavelab working in this way. Or just wait for SoundForge on Mac, which is imminent...
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:04 pm

chris... wrote:There is nothing fundamental about Ogg Vorbis as a format that enables it to be used this way, while WAV/AIFF can't.

Except that neither application would actually have been working on the ogg vorbis file, but on its own local unpacked version of it.
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Pitchfork » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:15 pm

Mixedup wrote:just wait for SoundForge on Mac, which is imminent...

Case closed, I'll wait for this, as I can't work with a PC any longer..
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Re: Talk to me about OGG Vorbis?

Postby Daniel Davis » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:20 pm

Just marginally off-topic, but MP3 is a proprietory format and as such not all browsers will embed mp3 codecs in their software for fear of being prosecuted. Ogg Vorbis is not similarly protected.

So for the big two: ie plays MP3s but not oggs and Firefox plays oggs, but not mp3s. So if you are writing a web page in HTML 5 you need to double encode everything once in MP3 for microsofters and once in Ogg Vorbis for everyone else. Stinks really.
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