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matching gts on whats the story

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matching gts on whats the story

Postby paleface » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:00 pm

hi folks
ive been working on a batch of songs for a while using whats the story as a guide track for levels

theres a hell of a lot of gtrs on that trak
and the closest ive got to it so far is to use panned open chrds "51" left and right in cubase and then a pair of barred chrds panned further out to 71 either side in cbase

ive tried panning the barr chrds far left and right but that seems to wide

im having a real problem matching the top end on the oasis trak
iv tried using both eq and enhancers but the demo of the waves aphex enhancer
that i tried seems to become very harsh and tiring
ive been recording music for quite a while now but its got me stummped how they got the top end on the oasis trak .is there some secret technique i need to know about
i think this trak is the most forward sounding even compared to the rest of the albumn its from

if anyone could share some knowledge on this itd be a real help
itd also be useful to be able to pick someones when i need help with something if anyone can share there experience

many thanks
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby paleface » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:02 pm

me again

i forget to add if anyone would like a copy of the trk i need help with so they can point me in the right direction feel free to ask
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby Jack Ruston » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:11 pm

Need to hear your track to get an idea of what the problem is. I can assure that it's nothing to do with panning. It's more likely that your recorded sounds are very different to your reference, and that you're looking for brightness in guitars that may need to come from the drum part. The balance is important.

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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby The Elf » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:16 pm

By all means include a link. It is hard to give precise details over a forum, but I can maybe suggest some starting points.
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby paleface » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:43 pm

http://www.sendspace.com/file/m1whej

sorry chaps heres a link to the song

any help /advice would be appreciated
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby Jack Ruston » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:08 pm

Sorry mate, is there any chance you could put this, or even just a small clip up somewhere where we don't have to install something to get the file...? Or am I doing it wrong?

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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby paleface » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:16 pm

sorry jack i didnt realise you had to install anything

i can mail it through google

if thats anygood
does this site allow you to store /send stuff i can do that if you prefer
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby Jack Ruston » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:20 pm

Can you stick it up on SoundCloud by any chance?

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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby The Elf » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:21 pm

Jack - if you untick the box to download with the site's download manager you can get the file without installing anything.
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby Jack Ruston » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:30 pm

No such option here for some reason. Tried with Chrome and Safari. If I press anything it just downloads the manager.
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby The Elf » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:39 pm

Odd. It's downloaded fine for me.

If the OP can't get it to you any other way I can send you a Dropbox link.
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby paleface » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:39 pm

its just uploading to soundcloud now jack

ill post the link in a couple of minutes
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby molecular » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:40 pm

If I click on "Click Here to start download from sendspace" it starts downloading the .wav

all the other "download" things are just fakes/advertising links.
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby paleface » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:45 pm

https://soundcloud.com/richy999/my-world-mix-8-less-ld-gt

finally

heres a link to a sound cloud post
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby Jack Ruston » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:46 pm

I'm probably just getting it wrong somehow (unless you guys are on PCs? ) and anyway I'm sure there's nothing wrong with using the manager anyway...It's just that I recently did a brand new system drive and I've got that 'clean OS' paranoia going on. :)
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby Jack Ruston » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:01 pm

Ok so I'm just listening quietly at home because the rat child is sleeping, but I think I can maybe give you some ideas....

If you listen to those Oasis tracks, and most of that sort of rock stuff with acoustic drums, the brightness isn't really coming from the guitars. It's actually coming from the drums, often percussion overdubs like tambourine and shaker, and other percussive parts like acoustic guitar (which in that context can be almost shaker-like). Electric guitars are band limited by nature, and you wont get much useful stuff above about 8k or whatever, whereas the cymbals, hats, shakers etc are way above that sort of frequency. Now in your track, the most obvious problem is that the drums are very quiet, very 'domestic' sounding, distant, indistinct etc. They're also quite cymbal free relatively speaking. You're trying to make the guitars big and bright and that's making the drums even smaller, and your other source of brightness, the vocal is really loud in an attempt to get that top end into the track. But what happens when you do that with rock is that the band sounds small.

So what I would do is to go back to the drum part...mix that to be bright in the cymbals and hats, sizzly snare but with impact, and big punchy kick. Bring the guitars and bass up but dont let them kill the drums off. Low pass the guitars to 8k or so and by all means lift them at 5k and 1.5 to get them bright and forward if that's what you're after. Don't kill too much low end in the guitars but high pass them so that their rumble doesn't cloud the bass. Make sure you can hear the high end of the bass too. Ask yourself if there's enough HF content in your production...the stuff mentioned above. Place the vocal so that the band still sounds big. Not sure if all those double tracks and things are helping.

Just some ideas

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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby The Elf » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:07 pm

Listening to the song you've posted as I type...

The guitars are very scratchy, it's true, but the rest of the instrumentation isn't helping. The drums, in particular are very weak. The vocal is so loud that it hits the mix compressor/limiter I suspect you've added and pushes the drums to inaudibility.

All this aside...

I understand you are trying to get a mix, but this recording isn't ready for it IMO. There's a lot in there needs tightening up.
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby paleface » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:16 pm

hello jack n elf ive

followed jacks suggestions

and it sounds a lot better

the gts are a lot more forward and the whole thing has more interest so thanks jack

ive also reworked the drums and brought the cymbals out more

though the kik now doesnt match the oasis trak
does this matter ?
i always thought to try to follow the reference mix as closely as possible
does it matter if i deviate slightly (with the beefier kik for example )
also jack you know how you said to put a cut on the gts at 8
should i do this on the ld gtrs as well ? or just the rythm
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby Jack Ruston » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:41 pm

It doesn't matter if you deviate from your reference as long as you're still in line with what you liked about it. Each track is different, and it may be that your track demands something else...maybe not. That's up to you! But if you listened to those tracks because you liked the balance, or the guitar sound, or the vocal fx, or the bass or whatever, just make sure that you're still going in that direction, OR decide to deviate for a specific reason.

RE the low pass on the guitars. It's a pretty good idea to get rid of the extreme frequencies in any source if they don't contain any useful content relating to that source...Now with electric guitar close mics, there's not much other than noise above about 8k or thereabouts so try a 12dB per octave filter and bring it down until you think it's just audible, then go back up a bit. Bypass it and check that you're not getting rid of something you want, and see if you find that it adds air and clarity to the drums or vocals for example. The same can be done in the low end with any source...guitar amps produce a lot of thump and rumble which you may or may not want. Bass too. Where you high pass it is up to you but in a modern production there is rarely much point in having anything going on much below 30hz, and on many source tracks you can filter up a lot higher than that. Ask yourself where the power is in your source, and what is just rumble that's eating up your headroom. The more cluttered the low end, the less punch, and the more your brickwall limiter will bend over, stopping you getting the track as loud as it might otherwise go. BE CAREFUL! Don't start filtering all your lows away...just be mindful of it.
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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby Jack Ruston » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:34 pm

...Of course there's nothing wrong with heavily removing high or low frequencies from a part if that's what's required to make the mix fit together. In the sort of music you're making a good candidate for that sort of thing would be keys....things like Piano and Hammond have tonnes of low end that there's simply no room for if you're using quite 'chunky' guitar sounds and a solid bass and kick. Wurli and Rhodes too...What you tend to find is that those sources 'borrow' bass from other elements in the mix, and that the harmonics trick the brain into hearing low end that isn't there. A good example of this to play piano low octaves on the roots of your chord changes, and then high pass those up to about 1k. You'd swear there was bottom end when the rest of the mix is well balanced.

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Re: matching gts on whats the story

Postby KeithAC1 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:50 am

When this record came out it was renowned for being mastered very, very loud... Check the article on the album itself from SOS a while back here, it may give you some tips on how it was achieved:-
classic-tracks-1112.htm
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