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New Balls

Postby Soundseed » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:39 am

I'd respectfully suggest that the time has come for SOS to start reflecting the reality of the music industry, and run articles not highlighting success, but rather focusing on failure. Its time to banish the notion of "its difficult but it can be done", and replace it with the near statistical certainty that "its next to impossible and you will fail".

I think we should hear from graduates of courses who racked up piles of debt and ended up not working in the music industry. From people who begged and borrowed to set up studios that ran at a loss and closed. From composers that spent huge amounts on orchestral libraries but didn't get the gig. From DIY labels that ticked all the boxes but sold hardly any copies. From songwriters who signed up for paid "A&R" and didn't get a single sync.

This is a matter of journalistic balance - these are the norm, and its about time they were given prominence in the music tech / music media. The constant feed of aspiration is nothing other than dishonest, and doesn't bear any semblance to reality.

To get it rolling, lets have a forum on failure, somewhere nice and prominent like at the top of the general discussions section.

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Re: New Balls

Postby jellyjim » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:42 am

Soundseed wrote:The constant feed of aspiration is nothing other than dishonest, and doesn't bear any semblance to reality

Welcome to Western Capitalism.
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Re: New Balls

Postby Exalted Wombat » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:56 am

Soundseed wrote:I'd respectfully suggest that the time has come for SOS to start reflecting the reality of the music industry, and run articles not highlighting success, but rather focusing on failure. Its time to banish the notion of "its difficult but it can be done", and replace it with the near statistical certainty that "its next to impossible and you will fail".

I think we should hear from graduates of courses who racked up piles of debt and ended up not working in the music industry. From people who begged and borrowed to set up studios that ran at a loss and closed. From composers that spent huge amounts on orchestral libraries but didn't get the gig. From DIY labels that ticked all the boxes but sold hardly any copies. From songwriters who signed up for paid "A&R" and didn't get a single sync.

This is a matter of journalistic balance - these are the norm, and its about time they were given prominence in the music tech / music media. The constant feed of aspiration is nothing other than dishonest, and doesn't bear any semblance to reality.

To get it rolling, lets have a forum on failure, somewhere nice and prominent like at the top of the general discussions section.

No-one likes your music then? :-)
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Re: New Balls

Postby Jabba1 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:08 pm

This does appear to be taking the line that everyone is in it for personal/professional financial gain as against those of us who just indulge for our own gratification/hobbyists.

By all means, highlight the pitfalls, warn people of traps that they may fall into, but to fill such a publication with doom and gloom would be a turn off. And, respectfully, I think this would probably be a better agenda for a trade publication like Music Week than SoS. Having not read it for a while, it'd be interesting to find out whether its full of the usual old self-congratulatory backslapping and oblivion to what is happening in the real world, as it certainly was when I last read it...
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Re: New Balls

Postby Sam Inglis » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:08 pm

Soundseed wrote:I'd respectfully suggest that the time has come for SOS to start reflecting the reality of the music industry, and run articles not highlighting success, but rather focusing on failure.

OK, who wants their failure to be featured first?
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Re: New Balls

Postby Mixedup » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:08 pm

erm... right, yeh. that's exactly what people want to read about. Ah man, I've bought all this gear and paid for all this education.. now, how the **** do I fail? WHY WON'T SOMEONE TELL ME!?!?!?! :roll:
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Re: New Balls

Postby Exalted Wombat » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:24 pm

Jabba1 wrote:This does appear to be taking the line that everyone is in it for personal/professional financial gain as against those of us who just indulge for our own gratification/hobbyists.


But the only thing holding ANY of us back from the big money is lack of the right "professional" gear, surely? :-)

Next year we can all start whining about how the lack of free music-technology courses is crippling our lives.
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Re: New Balls

Postby Soundseed » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:24 pm

Exalted Wombat wrote:

No-one likes your music then? :-)

Dunno :-) ... didn't bother releasing it, turned down offers for gigs, and ignored requests for copies from press/radio.

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Re: New Balls

Postby turbodave » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:33 pm

Soundseed wrote:
Exalted Wombat wrote:

No-one likes your music then? :-)

Dunno :-) ... didn't bother releasing it, turned down offers for gigs, and ignored requests for copies from press/radio.

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Re: New Balls

Postby Soundseed » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:37 pm

Sam Inglis wrote:
Soundseed wrote:I'd respectfully suggest that the time has come for SOS to start reflecting the reality of the music industry, and run articles not highlighting success, but rather focusing on failure.

OK, who wants their failure to be featured first?

Are you serious?

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Re: New Balls

Postby Exalted Wombat » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:37 pm

Soundseed wrote:
Exalted Wombat wrote:

No-one likes your music then? :-)

Dunno :-) ... didn't bother releasing it, turned down offers for gigs, and ignored requests for copies from press/radio.

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His website's quite fun though! Take a look.
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Re: New Balls

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:40 pm

Soundseed wrote:I'd respectfully suggest that the time has come for SOS to start reflecting the reality of the music industry

We do, every month. The reality is that the people with drive, talent, perserverence, people skills, and maybe some luck, succeed.... eventually

Its time to banish the notion of "its difficult but it can be done", and replace it with the near statistical certainty that "its next to impossible and you will fail".

But it's patently obvious and statistically certain that it can be done, and that some people do succeed. Not many, I grant you, but there are always fewer at the the top than those trying to climb there in any endeavour.

I think we should hear from graduates of courses who racked up piles of debt and ended up not working in the music industry.

It might make an interesting and sobering article... but I doubt it's something people would want to read every month.

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Re: New Balls

Postby blue manga » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:28 pm

Soundseed wrote:
Exalted Wombat wrote:

No-one likes your music then? :-)

Dunno :-) ... didn't bother releasing it, turned down offers for gigs, and ignored requests for copies from press/radio.


This illustrates the point I was going to make quite well.

In my experience 'successful' people (depending how exactly you judge success), in the music industry - have failed MANY more times, than un successful people.

Un successful people, are usually un successful - because they do not fail enough.

They don't have the balls. They don't have the hunger. They don't have the commitment. They don't have the belief. They don't have the persistence. They don't have what it takes - to fail & fail & fail & fail - until you start succeeding.
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Re: New Balls

Postby Jabba1 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:29 pm

Exalted Wombat wrote:
Jabba1 wrote:This does appear to be taking the line that everyone is in it for personal/professional financial gain as against those of us who just indulge for our own gratification/hobbyists.

But the only thing holding ANY of us back from the big money is lack of the right "professional" gear, surely? :-)

Next year we can all start whining about how the lack of free music-technology courses is crippling our lives.

:bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:
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Re: New Balls

Postby Jabba1 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:34 pm

blue manga wrote:
They don't have the balls. They don't have the hunger. They don't have the commitment. They don't have the belief. They don't have the persistence. They don't have what it takes - to fail & fail & fail & fail - until you start succeeding.

Indeed.... Whats known in the trade as "ambition". If you want it bad enough you'll sacrifice anything for it and never give up.

If you're not prepared to do that, you dont want it bad enough and other things are more important to you. Which is fine too, but doesnt really give the complainer much of a leg to stand on about how hard done by they were. Thems the breaks, kiddies.... :smirk:
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Re: New Balls

Postby ElecTrika-MixTek » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:50 pm

Soundseed wrote:I'd respectfully suggest that the time has come for SOS to start reflecting the reality of the music industry, and run articles not highlighting success, but rather focusing on failure. Its time to banish the notion of "its difficult but it can be done", and replace it with the near statistical certainty that "its next to impossible and you will fail".

I think we should hear from graduates of courses who racked up piles of debt and ended up not working in the music industry. From people who begged and borrowed to set up studios that ran at a loss and closed. From composers that spent huge amounts on orchestral libraries but didn't get the gig. From DIY labels that ticked all the boxes but sold hardly any copies. From songwriters who signed up for paid "A&R" and didn't get a single sync.

This is a matter of journalistic balance - these are the norm, and its about time they were given prominence in the music tech / music media. The constant feed of aspiration is nothing other than dishonest, and doesn't bear any semblance to reality.

To get it rolling, lets have a forum on failure, somewhere nice and prominent like at the top of the general discussions section.

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Re: New Balls

Postby The Elf » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:55 pm

It's a weird thing; the harder I work, the luckier I get... ;)
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Re: New Balls

Postby Soundseed » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:16 pm

Some fair points Hugh... in reverse order:

I think there is a huge amount to be learned from failure, in many ways more than success - and for those that are successful, the experience of failure is routinely pivotal in going on to succeed. It doesn't need to be ahem, "eeyore" style ... its a valid and educational topic.

As far as statistics go, yes some tiny minority will succeed, but what are the actual statistics? The last useful piece of research on the subject in Scotland found under 200 people earning a minimum of £2,500 a year from "creating, composing, performing" original music. Making the reasonable assumption that the age range for this group is 16 - 44, current population estimates suggest if you could cram these 2 million people into a giant tombola, the chances of picking one out who was earning as much from music as the job advertised in this month's SOS would be 1 in 27,000. There are apparently 4,000,000 users on Soundcloud... success is almost indisputably a lottery.

"drive, talent, perseverance, people skills, maybe some luck" ... this moniker for success must be one of the greatest marketing ploys ever invented. Just leaf through a NAMM Global Report or dwell on the success of Soundcloud, and it's apparent that those qualities are exactly what the those giving the advice *need* from those receiving it.
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Re: New Balls

Postby blue manga » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:30 pm

Soundseed wrote:success is almost indisputably a lottery.

Success IS luck !





















- as any failure will tell you.
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Re: New Balls

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:31 pm

Soundseed wrote:I think there is a huge amount to be learned from failure...

On a personal level, you can only learn from failure. And in most cases it has to be the personal experience of failure -- reading (or being told) about the failure of others seems to have no affect. And I base that comment on both my own career experiences, and on raising two teenagers.

If something works you're not going to put effort into finding out out it could have failed are you? And in the minds of most people, the reasons for other people's failures never apply to them!

It doesn't need to be ahem, "eeyore" style ... its a valid and educational topic.

Absolutely, I agree. That's why I said it would be an interesting thing to do once... But I stand by my comment that I honestly don't think it would appeal as much to most people as an article on more positive successes. It's just the way people are... and the nature of publishing.

... success is almost indisputably a lottery.

I'll dispute that ;). A lottery, by definition, is totally based on random chance. Success depends almost totally on effort and talent. Few people succeed because few people have enough of both.

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Re: New Balls

Postby ElecTrika-MixTek » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:31 pm

Soundseed wrote:Some fair points Hugh... in reverse order:

I think there is a huge amount to be learned from failure, in many ways more than success - and for those that are successful, the experience of failure is routinely pivotal in going on to succeed. It doesn't need to be ahem, "eeyore" style ... its a valid and educational topic.
Actually, the more I think about this the more it appeals to me. Spectacular failures in the music biz. Yeah, I'm having that big time - it's sensational, you could even do a feature on how a disastrous session was pulled back to be a great album (LA Woman by the Doors for example which Paul Rothschild walked out of).

I'd like to get some in depth coverage about why the music industry is falling apart. You know I am sure it has less to do with piracy that is suspected and more to do with lawyers and accountants sticking their snouts in where they have no business being.

Kid, you have something there, I've gotta hand it to you. Hugh, there's something very interesting in this - I think it deserves an article.
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Re: New Balls

Postby blue manga » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:35 pm

+ ur missing the point, with all this statistics.
It's not just about statistics, is it.

It's not just about getting a card with numbers on and seeing who's is called up.

Granted many success stories involve varying degrees of 'luck' - but many also involve varying degrees of persistence, blood, sweat and tears.

It's not a lottery at all - because if u don't have a 'lucky break' land in your lap - you work to get it. & you persist, and you learn & you strive - for however long it takes.

It may be that when you 'arrive' - it's not the destination you thought it was, or you have changed - or you have had to learn to change .. or whatever ..

But the point is - yes - some people are born lucky and some are not - but if u are not - you can still get there - it takes longer - it takes more - but you can get to where you believe you want to go. Winning lottery ticket or not.
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Re: New Balls

Postby The Bunk » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:50 pm

Soundseed wrote:
This is a matter of journalistic balance - these are the norm, and its about time they were given prominence in the music tech / music media. The constant feed of aspiration is nothing other than dishonest, and doesn't bear any semblance to reality.

To get it rolling, lets have a forum on failure, somewhere nice and prominent like at the top of the general discussions section.
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You should listen to the business news on the Today programme on radio 4. They just love doom and gloom. Even when a company has reported better than expected profits they try and find a negative angle on it. As, really, does the rest of the programme. Sets you up beautifully for the day if you just want to be p*ssed off with everything.
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Re: New Balls

Postby Mixedup » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:08 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:Success depends almost totally on effort and talent. Few people succeed because few people have enough of both.

Sure: you won't succeed without graft and talent...

...but if there are twenty equal talents entering a competition, and only eight 'winning' places available, then there are twelve talented and potentially hard-working individuals who will not 'succeed' ;)

So (a) it depends on how you define 'success'; and (b) I suspect that there isn't room for everyone to be successful.
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Re: New Balls

Postby The Right To Arm Bears » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:36 pm

Graft, talent and a head for bidniz.

I have nothing further to add, I'm just avoiding working on this particularly boring library track...
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Re: New Balls

Postby Chaconne » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:48 pm

The general idea that success is a lottery ticket is based on flawed statistics. If you have a wide enough catchtment, like everyone with a soundcloud account, then you have included to many people without any chance whatsoever.

If you include everyone who has a kick about at the weekend, then the chances for any of these people making the premiership is astonomical - but thats a meaningless statistic.

Most people who are really good enough to play professionally can get a chance - unless they are unlucky enough to pick up an injury, fail completely to do what is necessary to get noticed and coached - or - decide not to. The thing is anyone who says they had trials for whoever, admits that in the end that for whatever reason, they did not make the grade. For some reason, in music, no body will admit this.

Starting from a different basline, including only people who have some talent, can get on with people and have the knowledge to play the system and the strength to see it through - the odds are not astronomical - if you widen the outcome sensibly to include all of the ways you can work in the music industry.

Tales of real failure are quite rare, i.e talent cruelly overlooked, and often involve terrible mistakes, or unfortunate extra musical activities!
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Re: New Balls

Postby blue manga » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:45 pm

Uncle Peter wrote:Graft, talent and a head for bidniz.

I have nothing further to add, I'm just avoiding working on this particularly boring library track...

Get back to work Uncle !!! whitiishhhhh !!! Whitisshhhhh !!! (that's a whip sound btw) (as if you didn't know)
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Re: New Balls

Postby doctor doctor » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:59 pm

I think that a rather well known quote from the League Of Gentlemen, is in order :

It's a sh*t business.

:beamup:
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Re: New Balls

Postby The Right To Arm Bears » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:49 am

blue manga wrote:
Uncle Peter wrote:Graft, talent and a head for bidniz.

I have nothing further to add, I'm just avoiding working on this particularly boring library track...

Get back to work Uncle !!! whitiishhhhh !!! Whitisshhhhh !!! (that's a whip sound btw) (as if you didn't know)

:D Whitiissshhhhhhhhhhhh!
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Re: New Balls

Postby johnny h » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:53 am

blue manga wrote:
Soundseed wrote:success is almost indisputably a lottery.

Success IS luck !





















- as any failure will tell you.
Totally true. Lots of hard work without reward is tough, and can get you down. But those that succeed don't give in to negative thoughts. It's not nice to hear your stuff criticised or even ridiculed, but in my experience its the people that are open to it, and learn from it, are the ones that succeed. Its easy to hide your stuff away because you are scared of negative reactions, but you don't learn anything from that. You need to make mistakes, learn from them, develop your skills and try again. And again. Until it actually does work.

Of course there is the chance you are just rubbish and will never be good enough. But hard work is the key. Taking the football analogy - look at Roy Keane. In an interview he talked about his old mates from Cork teasing him that he wasn't as good as them at football when they were young. But then look at his medal collection and bank balance.
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