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EU extends music copyright to 70 years

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EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby GaryM » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:07 pm

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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:43 pm

Hurrah!

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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby ken long » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:23 pm

Yes, Hurray maybe. But I find some of this disingenuous,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14829373

"Think of the hard-up session musicians not Cliff Richard," he told me, claiming that thousands of struggling artists would now be guaranteed a pension."

Since when did session musicians ever get rights to their performances? And even if they did, how would they propose to implement this, let alone enforce it? I can understand if they were awarded composer's rights but then they're already covered.
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby feline1 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:33 pm

There's a painful amount of ignorance on what the "phonographic copyright" (copyright in the sound recording) and the "performer right" (broadcast royalty that musicians get when a recording they're on is broadcast) actually are.

That BBC article is littered with confused phrasing.


I obviously welcome the extension of the term by a further 20 years (although it's still rubbish compared to songwriter & literary copyright, which is generally for 90 years AFTER THE WRITER'S DEATH!)

The problem is practice is that PPL are a bunch of total moomins, and the notion that session musicians will be earning "a pension" from PPL Performer royalties is farcical.

The fact is that the PPL's IT systems have been in such a shambles for the past 10 years that barely anyone has been getting anything.
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby ken long » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:58 pm

feline1 wrote:There's a painful amount of ignorance on what the "phonographic copyright" (copyright in the sound recording) and the "performer right" (broadcast royalty that musicians get when a recording they're on is broadcast) actually are.

Indeed. But to say session musicians who have signed their rights away will now be compensated by a fund set up by the labels is absurd. But good luck to them. I hear Nick Mason needs some more motors so this should help...
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby feline1 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:10 pm

they won't - who said that?

They'll just (in principle) get airplay royalties when the track is broadcast.
(if PPL have their bank account details. And the record label has registered all the tracks data correctly. About five times. And rung up 'craig' at PPL every month to get it all sorted out. And so on).
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby ken long » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:20 pm

feline1 wrote:they won't - who said that?

The new law also includes a number of provisions designed to ensure that musicians see a fair proportion of the extra income, including a fund for musicians who signed away their rights when a recording was made.

The fund will be financed by record labels, who put aside a percentage of the benefits they get from the prolonged copyright.


From the article in the OP.

I was trying to find a link for the actual EU directive which I was perusing earlier but gave up on Google. It says the same thing though.
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby Steve Hill » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:20 pm

There's a lot of fudgery going on here (though Mike Batt was very good, and polite, on BBC Breakfast News this morning).

It's not all good, it's not all bad. Cliff will survive, as will the other campaigners. And it's hard to think of many hard-done-by musos over the years who made something 50+ years ago, the classic one-hit wonder situation, who now need the extra money in their 70s or 80s to supplement their state pensions. (Though if there are a few in that position, good luck to them).

But what I like is the EU-delivered slap in the face to pirates and downloaders who assume copyright should and must be weakened, not strengthened, solely because technology permits that.

Having legislated, it is now incumbent on the EU to enforce its own legislation. Rigorously.
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby feline1 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:11 am

ken long wrote:

The new law also includes a number of provisions designed to ensure that musicians see a fair proportion of the extra income, including a fund for musicians who signed away their rights when a recording was made.

The fund will be financed by record labels, who put aside a percentage of the benefits they get from the prolonged copyright.


Oh right! Well, if the majors are going to do that, then fair enough! They'll probably administer it a lot better than PPL would!

One of the most facepalmy things I keep hearing is that "it'll only benefit the big artists" - this is utter drivel - the PPL royalty rate is the same for everyone, so Cliff Richard earns just as much money from having one of his vocals broadcast on Radio 2 as I would. Quite a simple concept, which the genius commentators on the news seem unable to grasp.
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby chris... » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:20 pm

Steve Hill wrote:But what I like is the EU-delivered slap in the face to pirates and downloaders who assume copyright should and must be weakened, not strengthened, solely because technology permits that.

That's a nice thought - tho' I can imagine some people (more cynical than me) wondering if the EU figures this extension means they're seen to be doing something.

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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby Steve Hill » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:45 am

chris... wrote:I can imagine some people (more cynical than me)...

I find it hard to imagine people more cynical than you, Chris
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby * User requested deletion 2 * » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:53 am

feline1 wrote:.... the PPL royalty rate is the same for everyone, so Cliff Richard earns just as much money from having one of his vocals broadcast on Radio 2 as I would. Quite a simple concept, which the genius commentators on the news seem unable to grasp.

So how much do you earn from one of Cliff Richards vocals being broadcast on Radio 2?
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby feline1 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:57 am

hah hah

But PRS did once pay me £168 for someone else's advert being broadcast on HTV Wales

(then they decided they wanted it back and so my PRS account has been overdrawn ever since )
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby BenLD » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:28 am

feline1 wrote:There's a painful amount of ignorance on what the "phonographic copyright" (copyright in the sound recording) and the "performer right" (broadcast royalty that musicians get when a recording they're on is broadcast) actually are.

This is so true - I read this article yesterday, arguing that extending copyright 'harms creativity' and quoting examples that have nothing whatsoever to the copyright in recorded work:

Led Zep 'borrowing' from old blues songs (that's publishing)
James Joyces Ulysses (!)
'much of the work of Walt Disney' (because he re-worked existing stories?)
Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet (!)
the 'many modern pop songs that rely on Pachelbel's Canon' (!)

And there is a vocal Twitter community led by Graham Linehan (sitcom writer), who seem to think everything should be in the public domain and this would lead to flourishing creativity. And the example HE quotes was Neil Hannon doing a musical setting of a Shakespeare sonnet! Which again has nothing to do with recorded material.

I wonder how Graham Linehan would feel if I used a recording of one of his sitcoms to create a new sitcom, and sold it as an original work... perhaps he would applaud it, I'm not sure...

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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby ken long » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:39 am

BenLD wrote:
Led Zep 'borrowing' from old blues songs (that's publishing)

Could you expand on this please?
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby BenLD » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:07 am

ken long wrote:
BenLD wrote:
Led Zep 'borrowing' from old blues songs (that's publishing)

Could you expand on this please?

Leaving aside the actual songs of Led Zep, if you or I record a song that plagiarizes another songwriter's work, we would be infringing their publishing rights as the original writer of the work. Publishing rights already extend to 70 years beyond the life of the composer. Publishing rights are a form of copyright, but they are nothing to do with this new legislation.

This bill applies to copyright in recordings (mechanical copyright), so would only apply if we (or Led Zep!) used a sample of someone else's actual recording.

This is where people seem to be getting confused it seems...

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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby forumuser695516 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:28 pm

BBC:
It became known as the Cliff Richard law, because it promised to make sure the veteran rocker would go on earning money from 60s hits like Living Doll for many years to come.


Except Lionel Bart wrote that. Cliff was never really a song writer, so im not sure how much he stands to benefit from this extended copyright deal himself. However, many of the people that wrote his songs are also his friends, so I guess it is cool that he supports them and other musicians by spearheading this campaign to extend copyrights.

Cliff isn't such a bad chap really
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby feline1 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:42 pm

it's not about SONGS, ffs!

The copyright in SONGS *already* extends until NINETY YEARS AFTER THE WRITER'S DEATH, and has done for over a century!

This is about the copyright in a *sound recording* and the recorded performance of the musicians in it.

Now write that out 200 times!
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby Steve Hill » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:39 pm

feline1 wrote:it's not about SONGS, ffs!

The copyright in SONGS *already* extends until NINETY YEARS AFTER THE WRITER'S DEATH, and has done for over a century!

I thought it was 70 years?

Money aside, there's a moral dimension to this. As I wrote elsewhere, Cliff is less of a militant atheist than I am and may well subscribe to some Christian virtues.

Without this change there is at least a theoretical prospect of somebody using his recording of Living Doll to accompany say an advertising campaign for inflatable sex toys. Love him or loathe him, surely he has the right not to have to spend his dotage enduring that?
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby blue manga » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:01 pm

Steve Hill wrote:

Without this change there is at least a theoretical prospect of somebody using his recording of Living Doll to accompany say an advertising campaign for inflatable sex toys. Love him or loathe him, surely he has the right not to have to spend his dotage enduring that?


Well - 'moral rights' in publishing contracts are a whole different kettle .. not your point, I know .. and of course, Cliff I'm sure has retained a certain amount of, or total over riding moral rights (I've no idea) ... but I sign away moral rights on everything ..
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby forumuser695516 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:08 pm

feline1 wrote:it's not about SONGS, ffs!

The copyright in SONGS *already* extends until NINETY YEARS AFTER THE WRITER'S DEATH, and has done for over a century!

This is about the copyright in a *sound recording* and the recorded performance of the musicians in it.

Now write that out 200 times!



Christ, could you be any more of a pompous dick? But thanks for the tip anyway.
Here's a tip from me regarding all of your PRS/MCPS/PPL threads.. You'll find they'll look after you rather better once they actually owe you something.
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby Stan » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:18 pm

Steve Hill wrote: Money aside, there's a moral dimension to this.
I understand your point Steve Hill.
But, 'Livin doll' is a misogynistic piece of 60s shite.
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby GlynB » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:07 pm

Stan wrote:
Steve Hill wrote: Money aside, there's a moral dimension to this.
I understand your point Steve Hill.
But, 'Livin doll' is a misogynistic piece of 60s shite.

Ah, but how about 'Move It', now then... that's shut you up eh?

Classic!

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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby Steve Hill » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:26 pm

Move it? Pickfords advert, I suspect....
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby feline1 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:23 pm

~Paul wrote:
feline1 wrote:it's not about SONGS, ffs!

The copyright in SONGS *already* extends until NINETY YEARS AFTER THE WRITER'S DEATH, and has done for over a century!

This is about the copyright in a *sound recording* and the recorded performance of the musicians in it.

Now write that out 200 times!


Christ, could you be any more of a pompous dick? But thanks for the tip anyway.
Here's a tip from me regarding all of your PRS/MCPS/PPL threads.. You'll find they'll look after you rather better once they actually owe you something.


OK well that's FINE then.
(Of course, the fact that I've missed out on about half of what I am owed so far precisely because of the sorts of administrative egregiousness mentioned in those threads is by the by...)

PS. I literally did of course want you to write out 200 lines. There was no humour indicated there at all.
And it is of no concern to us whatsoever that the vast majority of people who speak on this issue (never mind legislate on it) are utterly clueless as to the detail (or, indeed, the basic concepts). Thus there is no reason whatsoever for anyone to be exasperated.
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby feline1 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:24 pm

Steve Hill wrote:

Money aside, there's a moral dimension to this. As I wrote elsewhere, Cliff is less of a militant atheist than I am and may well subscribe to some Christian virtues.

Without this change there is at least a theoretical prospect of somebody using his recording of Living Doll to accompany say an advertising campaign for inflatable sex toys. Love him or loathe him, surely he has the right not to have to spend his dotage enduring that?


Well don't worry - thanks to this legislation, even if Cliff snuffs it, the gay vicar he lives with will be able to safeguard his moral rights for decades to come.
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby johnny h » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:05 am

~Paul wrote:
feline1 wrote:
Here's a tip from me regarding all of your PRS/MCPS/PPL threads.. You'll find they'll look after you rather better once they actually owe you something.
Ouch
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby feline1 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:07 am

johnny h wrote:
Ouch

you can piss off, you troll.
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby johnny h » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:13 pm

feline1 wrote:
johnny h wrote:
Ouch

you can piss off, you troll.

Brilliant comeback, feline.

Perhaps in the next sound on sound revamp we can create a separate 'feline moaning about his lack of monetary rewards from music' forum to give this one a break...
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Re: EU extends music copyright to 70 years

Postby feline1 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:34 pm

seriously though, do [ ****** ] off.

With all due deference to the forum mods, you persistently troll mine and others' threads with your asinine snide comments, and are clearly a total dick. (And, notwithstanding that, demonstrably factually wrong in your characterisation of my critiques of dysfunction IT systems and bureacracy of collection societies).
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