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"BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby Gone To Lunch » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:53 pm

Says the Guardian HERE
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby GLENN » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:04 pm

Oh dear dare I be the first to reply!
It wont work.
There are far to many other ways for people to download movies,music,porn ect for free.
I wonder if any research has been one on why people think its ok to download and not buy music/films culture?
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby narcoman » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:24 pm

it DOES work. Blocking casual easy piracy is the key. Blocking stuff by making people take weird routes, makes it harder and that is ALL that counts.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby chris... » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:07 pm

narcoman wrote:it DOES work.

Evidence?


Blocking casual easy piracy is the key. Blocking stuff by making people take weird routes, makes it harder and that is ALL that counts.

Remember that the pirates are using tools (e.g bit torrent clients, and other things) to perpetrate their piracy. The tools are written by clever people, but used by people with little technical clue.

The use of "weird routes" (and whatever else it takes to bypass any blocking attempts) will inevitably be built right into the tools, and entirely automatic, so ultimately, the pirates using the tools won't have to do anything different from what they've done in the past. Most won't even be aware the "weird routes" are involved.

A better plan might involve (where possible) suing pirates, and, most importantly, educating the public.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby baward » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:35 pm

In terms of addressing it, I think it will help to connect illegal music downloads with illegal porn downloads (and the pirates who are behind both) in the public's mind.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby Frisonic » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:40 pm

narcoman wrote:it DOES work. Blocking casual easy piracy is the key. Blocking stuff by making people take weird routes, makes it harder and that is ALL that counts.

Narcoman, can I ask a naive question. Does Pirate Bay and the like make money or is it a sort of 'we're liberating music for the masses' business model? I've never used a pirate 'vendor'. Needless to say, Robin Hood/Dick Turpin, both just as bad. But I honestly don't know how it typically works and I'm really curious. As for your observation that making piracy downloads harder will help, I am sure you are right.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby VOLOVIA » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:00 pm

100% with Narco on this. It is possible to copy commercial/rented DVDs, but it's a pain and it requires downloading viri/led bits of software from dodgy sites. And when you burn them to DVDs... often they don't work and waste plastic... I have been told..

I was watching the Big Bang Theory a few nights ago from a Czec website and it pushed my fragile SONY VAIO's NVIDIA video chip to the limit (maybe a virus too?) which caused it to crash, damage the chip (let's no get into this...), and turning my expensive computer into lovely doorstop. Lesson learnt!

My point is, by making it difficult, albeit and admittedly not impossible, to clone digital media, it's already a huge step forward to minimise digital theft. Like installing a double lock on your front door: it won't stop the determine professional, but the local scumbag/druggy probably will.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby narcoman » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:05 pm

chris... wrote:
narcoman wrote:it DOES work.
Evidence?


Blocking casual easy piracy is the key. Blocking stuff by making people take weird routes, makes it harder and that is ALL that counts.
Remember that the pirates are using tools (e.g bit torrent clients, and other things) to perpetrate their piracy. The tools are written by clever people, but used by people with little technical clue.

The use of "weird routes" (and whatever else it takes to bypass any blocking attempts) will inevitably be built right into the tools, and entirely automatic, so ultimately, the pirates using the tools won't have to do anything different from what they've done in the past. Most won't even be aware the "weird routes" are involved.

A better plan might involve (where possible) suing pirates, and, most importantly, educating the public.
aal of the above.

Evidence? Less piracy in Denmark.

Honestly - make anything harder and you'll remove some of the issue. Do nothing, and there are no changes. You'll never get RID of piracy - but by blocking sites you stop people like my dad. !!

That's most pirates - people who haven't got a fekking clue and just go to a torrent site. Block those IPs.... done for 90% of piracy. Most pirates aren't wised up computer genius' - they're just idiots who've been given an easy route. Make it hard, and trust me, a lot of the issue goes away. It's the whole reasoning for speed cameras (just drive around with your number plate covered up), an old lady at the self service check out (the possibility that they might be caught).

Everything in life is governed by how hard it is to do. Piracy is just so piss easy at the moment. Make it hard.... cus you'll never completely lose it. Oh - and those grannies who get slammed down hard in the USA with $20,000 fines. [ ****** ] em. Double the fine when they complain..... :D
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby hollowsun » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:07 pm

baward wrote:In terms of addressing it, I think it will help to connect illegal music downloads with illegal porn downloads...
Which could (arguably) make it all the more attractive to some/many people (i.e. teenage lads with raging hormones!).

Better, perhaps, to associate piracy with all the virii and sh!t that gets embedded in cracks and warez as you rummage around the virtual dark back streets and alleyways where the lowlife crims hang out who, in real life, would take your hand off just to grab your cheap watch.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby narcoman » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:07 pm

Frisonic wrote:
narcoman wrote:it DOES work. Blocking casual easy piracy is the key. Blocking stuff by making people take weird routes, makes it harder and that is ALL that counts.

Narcoman, can I ask a naive question. Does Pirate Bay and the like make money or is it a sort of 'we're liberating music for the masses' business model? I've never used a pirate 'vendor'. Needless to say, Robin Hood/Dick Turpin, both just as bad. But I honestly don't know how it typically works and I'm really curious. As for your observation that making piracy downloads harder will help, I am sure you are right.

Advertising believe it or not!! And some of them (like the old russian owned MP3.com) charged fees.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby chris... » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:17 pm

narcoman wrote:Evidence? Less piracy in Denmark.

A few years ago various Danish ISPs implemented a trivial-to-work-around block on thepiratebay's main website. I'm struggling to find any stats on how much this reduced piracy in Denmark (if at all).


Most pirates aren't wised up computer genius' - they're just idiots who've been given an easy route.

Yep - that's the whole point. The standard tools (torrent client etc) will be updated by one computer genius, then used by loads of idiots.

For example, the BT newzbin2 "block" isn't even in place yet; however, the operators of the site have already updated their client to work around it.

For everyone who's fallen for it (not just Narco), the "it'll-stop-all-but-determined-pirates" idea is naive, and I'm afraid bollox.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby chris... » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:18 pm

narcoman wrote:Advertising believe it or not!!

Shurely that ought to be sortable. Why are the companies who's products are advertised doing business with TPB ? Same goes for the banks/paypal handling the money, and the ad networks linking all this stuff up. They are all legit companies, so why are they doing business with TPB ?
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby narcoman » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:54 pm

chris... wrote:
narcoman wrote:Advertising believe it or not!!
Shurely that ought to be sortable. Why are the companies who's products are advertised doing business with TPB ? Same goes for the banks/paypal handling the money, and the ad networks linking all this stuff up. They are all legit companies, so why are they doing business with TPB ?

absolutely
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby narcoman » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:58 pm

chris... wrote:
For everyone who's fallen for it (not just Narco), the "it'll-stop-all-but-determined-pirates" idea is naive, and I'm afraid bollox.


Dear chap - Nobody has fallen for anything. It's one part that's all. I'll tell you what DOESN'T work - simple legislation. It needs legislation with meaningful punishment and pro-active shut down.

Can't find stats for Denmark? There aren't any. But sales are UP.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby chris... » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:05 pm

narcoman wrote:Nobody has fallen for anything.

Virtually everyone who's already posted on this thread (and probably most of those who are about to do so...)

have fallen for the notion that trivial-to-work-around blocks will stop all but determined pirates. As I've said above, the use of tools means this is not the case.

Even a web browser is a tool. How many kids have written their own web browser ? And how many use a one someone else wrote ? Do they need to know how it works under the hood ? By the same token, it will not be necessary to be a computer geek in order to use tools that facilitate piracy (which includes web browsers).
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby Frisonic » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:05 pm

narcoman wrote:
Frisonic wrote:
narcoman wrote:it DOES work. Blocking casual easy piracy is the key. Blocking stuff by making people take weird routes, makes it harder and that is ALL that counts.

Narcoman, can I ask a naive question. Does Pirate Bay and the like make money or is it a sort of 'we're liberating music for the masses' business model? I've never used a pirate 'vendor'. Needless to say, Robin Hood/Dick Turpin, both just as bad. But I honestly don't know how it typically works and I'm really curious. As for your observation that making piracy downloads harder will help, I am sure you are right.

Advertising believe it or not!! And some of them (like the old russian owned MP3.com) charged fees.

Makes you sick, doesn't it. Bringing down an entire industry just to scrape a few meager scraps from the bottom of the barrel. I guess charging fees direct is no longer an option as the perpetrators could be traced too easily through their merchant services, you would hope. But has anyone tried suing the advertisers directly? That might hurt their revenue supply badly enough maybe, if there was a way through international law?
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby chris... » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:07 pm

Frisonic wrote: charging fees direct is no longer an option as the perpetrators could be traced too easily through their merchant services, you would hope.

The operative words being "you would hope".

Newzbin2 (the subject of recent court order for BT to "block") DO charge.

Why they haven't been traced and sued, in the way you suggest, I don't know.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby Zukan » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:09 pm

chris... wrote:
narcoman wrote:Advertising believe it or not!!
Shurely that ought to be sortable. Why are the companies who's products are advertised doing business with TPB ? Same goes for the banks/paypal handling the money, and the ad networks linking all this stuff up. They are all legit companies, so why are they doing business with TPB ?

Huge traffic brought on by the provision of pirated content.

It's the standard format nowadays. In the old days they charged a membership or subscription. Now they rely on advertising revenue generated by huge traffic without charging users.

I have always said this: remove the link to the breached content and only the diehards will chase it. Most of the music content that is pirated is not done by computer programmers or seriously clued up techies. It's kids and the like who have been moulded into believing that anything this is digital in format can be taken without it being 'illegal'.

Then you have the penae who try to justify it.
Here's a good example and it was educational for me:

I was at a party with family and the son of the voice coach for my niece was chatting to me about music. I asked him how many songs he had on his i-whatever. He said '4,500'. I asked him how many he had actually paid for. He said 'none' He then qualified this with: 'well, it's the 3 album rule innit?' I asked him what the 3 album rule was and he informed me that once an artist/band had released 3 albums it meant they, in his words, were 'caked' and therefore had made enough money that he could take the artist's products without paying and feeling guilty about it.

You see, to steal digital format content is now viewed as theft by many irrespective of how you explain it to them. If it can be copied and redistributed without having to steal the original then it's not piracy/theft.

Go figure.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby Frisonic » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:13 pm

chris... wrote:
Frisonic wrote: charging fees direct is no longer an option as the perpetrators could be traced too easily through their merchant services, you would hope.
The operative words being "you would hope".

Newzbin2 (the subject of recent court order for BT to "block") do charge.

Why they haven't been traced and sued, in the way you suggest, I don't know.

It most certainly can be done and if not yet in law, then that is perhaps an area for the meaningful legislation Narcoman is suggesting. Maybe Steve Hill has an explanation as to why my simple logic is flawed?

Going back to the advertisers, has anybody thought of a campaign vehicle that names and shames them? Or has it been deemed that this would simply generate more advertising for them at zero cost?
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby chris... » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:22 pm

Frisonic wrote:It most certainly can be done and if not yet in law, then that is perhaps an area for the meaningful legislation Narcoman is suggesting. Maybe Steve Hill has an explanation as to why my simple logic is flawed?

Why would new legislation be needed ? Newzbin have already been found in breach of existing copyright laws. And as you say, in this case, as they charge, there's a money trail. So why haven't they been sued ?
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby Zukan » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:57 pm

Frisonic wrote:
Going back to the advertisers, has anybody thought of a campaign vehicle that names and shames them? Or has it been deemed that this would simply generate more advertising for them at zero cost?

I like this idea.
After all, they are the ones that fund the pirate sites..........apart from the gang dude with 8 tons of narks and 50 babes working for him.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby Frisonic » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:22 pm

Zukan wrote:
Frisonic wrote:
Going back to the advertisers, has anybody thought of a campaign vehicle that names and shames them? Or has it been deemed that this would simply generate more advertising for them at zero cost?

I like this idea.
After all, they are the ones that fund the pirate sites..........apart from the gang dude with 8 tons of narks and 50 babes working for him.

It would be something the industry could so immediately, without having to work around the courts, never mind the confusion of cross border legislation and I doubt it would even need to cost that much in the great scheme of things. It would really only be an extension of the awareness campaigns that have been going on for years already, but more targeted at the funders rather than the 'consumer'. Of course how successful it would be might depend upon the nature of the advertisers, some of whom might even feel they are gaining credibility by being 'outed' (such as the 'front ends' of the kind of businesses Zukan eludes to). I don't know as I have never seen them. But equally I can imagine there are plenty of legitimate businesses that are investing in on line campaigns and not really even knowing where their advertisements are showing up, who might unwittingly be finding themselves front and center of pirate sites, with unscrupulous media companies working unethically in the middle. I can easily imagine that scenario. If that were the case it would be fairly easy to cause a big fuss within the advertising industry.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby narcoman » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:36 pm

chris... wrote:
Frisonic wrote:It most certainly can be done and if not yet in law, then that is perhaps an area for the meaningful legislation Narcoman is suggesting. Maybe Steve Hill has an explanation as to why my simple logic is flawed?

Why would new legislation be needed ? Newzbin have already been found in breach of existing copyright laws. And as you say, in this case, as they charge, there's a money trail. So why haven't they been sued ?


Because you'd need book legislation outlining what you can do. so far there is none. Being in breach does not give you a course of action. Legislation for immediate blocking, or raids, or bank asset seizure etc .... Being sued takes a LONG time (my company has been involved in many many copyright breech cases for out of territory use of material - we deal with those breaches as part of the overall licensing work we do.)

Naming and shaming - whilst looking like a proper thing to do - is a dangerous game. Word it wrong and find yourself on the back end of a libel claim. bummer init?
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby chris... » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:38 pm

Right - interesting.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby Frisonic » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:14 pm

narcoman wrote: Naming and shaming - whilst looking like a proper thing to do - is a dangerous game. Word it wrong and find yourself on the back end of a libel claim. bummer init?

I guess its down to risk management. But surely, in that scenario, the libel claim would descend into a counter suing blame game, in which the record company would be able to fairly easily demonstrate the moral high ground, provided prof was evident that the cited advertisement did indeed appear on said pirate site at given time on given date. I don't know how you would do that to the satisfaction of a court but assuming one could, its pretty black and white. In which case the advertiser would then be left with burden of proving their innocence against the 'bad' of either the pirate site or their advertising agency. I guess you end up with a war between the IP owners (record companies etc) and advertising agencies. But the IP owners didn't start it in the courts, they only named and shamed... My guess is that it would soon become obvious that it was to the advantage of all legitimate parties that it was better settled in the bar rather than at the Bar. It would certainly be the recording industry taking on their risk downside more aggressively than they have been able to do thus far.

Always been a great believe in that old adage about fortune smiling on the brave. This is why I am probably being a wide eyed innocent rather than a practicing lawyer...
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby GLENN » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:53 pm

narcoman wrote:it DOES work. Blocking casual easy piracy is the key. Blocking stuff by making people take weird routes, makes it harder and that is ALL that counts.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for any legitimate efforts.
As a newsgroups user for legitimate uses I can assure you no one will ever stop binsearch and newsgroups where files get shared with frightening ease.
They are fragmented so someone like BT will not know what your downloading.
Encrypted downloads also take care of this big brother action.
So no Nacroman it won't work I'm afraid.
And for the record why should porn take it in the neck?
There's nothing wrong with legal erotica.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby chris... » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:16 pm

narcoman wrote:Naming and shaming - whilst looking like a proper thing to do - is a dangerous game. Word it wrong and find yourself on the back end of a libel claim. bummer init?

Oh, missed that bit. Presumably you'd contact the company first, to ask for their response. Some/most may well not be aware this is happening.

(e.g they pay some ad network, without being fully aware where their ads are being placed...)

As for going public, I'd like to think a screenshot of the company's ad at the top of thepiratebay.com would be quite a good libel defence. But perhaps not sufficient.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure this stuff has been looked at, and it would be good to read some papers. (Will do when time permits).
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby hollowsun » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:26 pm

The ubiquitous GoogleAds will place context sensitive ads wherever anyone has subscribed to the service so it's quite possible/likely that a (for example) Native Instruments ad could appear on a dodgy site which has subscribed to GoogleAds and making cracks of Kontakt or Kontakt library available.

As well as being a legal nightmare in the 'naming and shaming' thing, it also causes a lot of confusion for those not 'in the know' (i.e. most people) who get to a dodgy site to get a crack of Kontakt and see an ad from NI on the site which somehow adds credibility to the site....

"Oh - it's ok to download these warez as the site's endorsed by the manufacturer"

Ermmmm ... no - it's the randomness of GoogleAds.

I run a few forums that get their revenue from GoogleAds. They're all kosher (obviously) but as soon as someone mentions Kontakt or Komplete or Reaktor - whatever - in a post, an ad for NI appears.

Now, extrapolate....

You're running a dodgy pirate site using GoogleAds for revenue to support it....

Someone posts a link to a crack of Kontakt or my Kontakt library and presto - a context sensitive GoogleAd for NI appears!

Can't exactly name and shame NI for 'advertising' via GoogleAds on a warez site providing links to cracks of their own product because of the random, context sensitive nature of GoogleAds. Image

Google have a lot to answer for!
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby chris... » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:35 pm

hollowsun wrote:Can't exactly name and shame [whoever] for 'advertising' via GoogleAds on a warez site

No and yes. Any legit company buying ad space via Google AdSense (then washing their hands) ought to be fully aware what this actually means.

Google would share any blame - they shouldn't be giving ad revenue to pirate sites. But I guess a problem is many of the sites will *claim* they host legit content (and deal with anything infringing...) so therefore they qualify to host the ads.

Note that Google is being used completely hypothetically in my post (and I think Hollowsun's). The Pirate Bay ads appear to be from some other ad network, and NOT Google AdSense.
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Re: "BT under pressure to block pirate bay"

Postby Frisonic » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:24 pm

I'm getting this now... So, the 'nightmare' is the music industry suing Google! Yes, well, that would indeed take balls of steel. My immediate thought would be a 'music industry' vehicle to take forward the name and shame action, perhaps supported discreetly by the bona fide music industry but one that has absolutely nothing by way of assets that Google, or whoever, could go for in the event of losing. A sort of silver torpedo...

The more I understand this the more I begin to realise it's Silicone Valley relentlessly pushing through their own smash and grab agenda that offer's the pirates cover. I couldn't help noticing another thread started by forum regular Dubman earlier this evening, that brought our attention to a Rolling Stone article that seemed to indicate that Silicone Valley are currently coining most of the music industry's revenues...
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