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"The self engineered demise of the record labels"

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"The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Gone To Lunch » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:46 am

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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby johnny h » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:41 am

Gone To Lunch wrote: See here
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby narcoman » Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:04 am

An article nearly ten years behind the times!!!
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby hollowsun » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:50 pm

I had to take a look at the date of the article. Thought there'd been a disruption in the time/space continuum!
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby The Red Bladder » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:54 pm

Just ten?

What is remarkable about that article, is that the labels are still making the same mistakes that they were making 20 years ago. Only this time around, they are pushing away anything worthwhile (financially and artistically) with their 'include everything and in perpetuity' deals (what the author calls a 360-deal). Nobody worth spit (other than some asinine talent show winners - and that ain't a label business) is going to want or need to go for a deal like that!

The labels did not just miss the boat, they managed to miss every bloody boat in the harbour! And they are still doing it - only now, they are trying to grab more and more of less and less! One day, they will be left with everything of nothing and their business will make as much sense as having a monopoly for Hansom cabs in the City of London.
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby narcoman » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:48 pm

.... that's not true for all labels RB. Universal are making more money than ever - just not as a record label!! .... things have changed!
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby The Red Bladder » Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:44 pm

What really ticks me off about this business, is the lack of vision by musicians.

Musicians - these people seem almost to-a-man incapable of thinking in terms of a show. They are in show business, yet totally lack any ability to start with the concept of what sort of show they are going to produce. They sit around, scratching themselves, waiting for inspiration and for 'that great song' (that never comes!) instead to doing things the right way about. You start with a show and a concept for that show, THEN work out what sort of sounds you are going to make (metal, pop, prog-rock, whatever) - then and ONLY then, think of the tunes. That's why acts like Gaga, Rammstein, Beyonce, Pink, etc., are successful across the whole of planet Earth. They think of how to put on a show FIRST!

And before you think of a show and what they show is going to look like and sound like, you have to have something to say. Gaga, Rammstein et al have something to say.

I have sat down many times with musicians and they have told me that they are trying to compose a song, but are having difficulties. I then ask them, what are they trying to say? What are they trying to tell the World? Are they writing about death, love, relationships, lost dreams, lost youth, what?

"Er, well, er, um . . ." and that's about it.

"I don't think we actually have one message." they mumble vaguely.

I tell them, no yearning need to tell the World that something's going on - no message. No message means you have nothing to say, so no show. No show, no sounds, no music and no tunes.

Just noise.
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Gone To Lunch » Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:21 pm

As someone (?) famously said...

"They call it 'show business', NOT 'show art'"
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Frisonic » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:01 pm

The Red Bladder wrote: Gaga, Rammstein et al have something to say.

I agree with everything you said there RB except I'm struggling with this bit. If its true their respective messages have clearly passed me by... Sorry.
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Scramble » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:55 am

I've always found that a few band members wearing stonewashed jeans on-stage covers both the 'show' part and the 'message' part. Problem solved!
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Shambolic Charm » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:39 am

I know someone who roadies for the O2 arena. He has a saying which experience has born out. 'The size of the show is inverse to the amount of talent'

Jeez not all music is showbiz. the biggest artist of last year Adele just stands and sings. You've been brainwashed by Simon Cowell if you think she should be tapdancing.
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby The Red Bladder » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:01 am

1. Adel puts on a terrific show and a very big show. Pink Floyed and Genesis put on just about the biggest shows I have ever seen and I can't remember seeing Gilmour practice busting his moves back stage!

2. You are missing the point - she has something to say. So do Rammstein and Gaga - in fact, those two shove their message right into your face and you would have to be clinically dead to miss it!

3. I shall never cease to be amazed at the way roadies know so much more about the music business than everybody else - a sort of cross between a Greek chorus and a cage full of monkeys!
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Frisonic » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:40 pm

The Red Bladder wrote:she has something to say... Gaga - in fact shove(s) the message right into your face and you would have to be clinically dead to miss it!

Forgive me for slightly amending your quote RB. Even I am aware that she has taken a position against bullying as a result of incidents in her childhood. I am also aware that she has used her position in the industry to the devastating disadvantage of her original songwriter (she is another one who pretends to write songs) who she very publicly tucked up in a fairly spectacular manner. How she has done this is tantamount to bullying. Therefore it seems she is a bully who preaches against bullying. You can call that 'having something to say'. Personally I wouldn't. You could also say so what? Her audience doesn't give a toss if she's a hypocrite. And you would probably be right.

I agree that veteran UK rock acts always had the biggest shows they could contrive to get their message across and always had something to say. I'm probably being a bit pedantry here but if my rose tinted memory serves me correctly, what those bands had to say was rather less vacuous than what that trollop from NJ squeals on about. Sadly I find this rather dilutes your otherwise astute observation.
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby hollowsun » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:37 pm

Frisonic wrote:she is another one who pretends to write songs
And the source of that claim?

A friend of mine is assistant to her producer, RedOne, and I can tell you that she writes her own stuff and she is very musically and technically savvy. When she was on tour recently (which my chum accompanied her on ... and got me on the guest list), they took a ProTools rig round with them and she was constantly writing and recording new material.

While she was on Interscope Records, she was writing for Britney Spears, New Kids On The Block, Fergie and The Pussycat Dolls.

Or is it that because she's a woman, dies her hair odd colours, can dance, put on a good show, is a bit bonkers, etc., it's just assumed she's a musically illiterate, attention grabbing bimbo?
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Shambolic Charm » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:12 pm

The Red Bladder wrote:1. Adel puts on a terrific show and a very big show. Pink Floyed and Genesis put on just about the biggest shows I have ever seen and I can't remember seeing Gilmour practice busting his moves back stage!


Depends what you mean by 'A Show' ( Orchestra and a back screen?!) Ok Pink Floyd and Genesis, but what about Deep Purple; Bob Dylan; PIL; Bob Marley; etc. etc. etc. Everyone has their style and 'show' is irrelevant to many of them. More put on 'A show' now because of the massive festivals and stadiums they are playing. The 'show' doesn't make them any more worthy and there are many that are all 'show' and no depth.

Furthermore the message the greatest artists put across is usually written on their heart. Not something pondered over as a formula for success. Adele for instance is probably so popular because she lays her heart bare. There's no one message just an expression of her sufferings through relationships. Give me that over any preachy stuff any timer
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby ken long » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:13 pm

hollowsun wrote:
And the source of that claim?

Rob Fusari .

He also wrote Bootyliscious...
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby baward » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:15 pm

More on the state of the music business in this 2008 article from Alan Wilder: http://www.side-line.com/interviews_comments.php?id=29640_0_16_0_C
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby hollowsun » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:44 pm

ken long wrote:Rob Fusari
Hmmm...

He claims to have 'discovered' her. Not quite true - someone saw her performing when she was doing her burlesque shows and told Fusari about her.

And he 'collaborated' with her on some early tracks at his studio. When I had a 'proper' studio and had bands in, I too 'collaborated' with them making suggestions for motifs, riffs, arrangements, instrumentation and sounds, etc., here and there ... and I 'produced' the tracks - I can't claim to have 'written' the song(s) though or have a stake on any royalties if they made it big as a result of my endeavours (none did ... one almost did). If I had wanted that, I should have entered into a water-tight contract first.

I'm suspecting sour grapes here - they had some collaborative thing going on, it didn't work out, she moved on, made $quillions and he wants a slice.
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Frisonic » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:00 pm

ken long wrote:
hollowsun wrote:
And the source of that claim?

Rob Fusari .

He also wrote Bootyliscious...

That is the best known example. There are others. I understand she has her own talents but she uses her position to take credit for other people's work. I became aware of this before I had heard her music so I never bothered to listen to any. I assumed her 'message' was bogus. I first became aware of this trend with pop acts with the Spice Girls, who I am told by people close enough to that project would not take a song unless the songwriter agreed to let them take writing credits. That's bullying. Perhaps its always been that way. They don't all do it. Certainly the Genesis and Pink Floyd's of this world never needed to. But today it seems most do.
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby turbodave » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:05 pm

...and you wonder why the industry is on its arse?...this thread has proved nothing, but greed and argument coexist where fun and cooperation should ....its bloody music! she's done this and he's done that and he said and she said...all of it balloons! Happy New Year! Dave
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby The Red Bladder » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:22 pm

Frisonic wrote:
ken long wrote:
hollowsun wrote:
And the source of that claim?


Rob Fusari .

He also wrote Bootyliscious...


That is the best known example. There are others. I understand she has her own talents but she uses her position to take credit for other people's work.


In my 40-something years of dealing with talent, I have learnt to NEVER believe anything I have ever heard about them. The bad boys who have reputations for terrible deeds turn out to be real pussy-cats and the do-gooder charity supporters often turn out to be some of the most disgusting kiddy-fiddlers. That boy-from-the-hood rapper came from a middle class neighbourhood and his parents were both lawyers. That clean-cut crooner and family father has 'previous' for trying to touch-up little boys in lavatories. That friendly family mother, agony aunt and adoring wife goes out of her way to destroy people's lives, simply because she can. And that heavy metal rocker that admitted on a talk show to raping his sister, does not actually have a sister.

And none of that even includes the C&W acts - now they . . . nah, better not!

Two terrible facts about Lady Gaga, that will set you back on your heals and make you lose all faith in humanity -

1. She really does write her own songs, but the arrangements are done by others.

2. She does not have, nor has she ever had a Great Dane.

I find this last one truly shocking and a scandal worthy of calling Gagagate! I mean, how could she try to claim that they were her own dogs in 'Pokerface' when one is a famous show dog from California, even with his own website?

Now that is the real scandal!!!

(As for Mr Fusari, the other side of the story is that she and her father signed a contract with him that contravened US employment law, so Universal (?) told them they can just tear it up - but that's just a story and like I said, "Don't believe, don't believe, don't believe the hype!")
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Frisonic » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:54 pm

Fair enough!
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby ken long » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:00 pm

The Red Bladder wrote:
Frisonic wrote:
ken long wrote:
hollowsun wrote:
And the source of that claim?

Rob Fusari .

He also wrote Bootyliscious...

That is the best known example. There are others. I understand she has her own talents but she uses her position to take credit for other people's work.

In my 40-something years of dealing with talent, I have learnt to NEVER believe anything I have ever heard about them. The bad boys who have reputations for terrible deeds turn out to be real pussy-cats and the do-gooder charity supporters often turn out to be some of the most disgusting kiddy-fiddlers. That boy-from-the-hood rapper came from a middle class neighbourhood and his parents were both lawyers. That clean-cut crooner and family father has 'previous' for trying to touch-up little boys in lavatories. That friendly family mother, agony aunt and adoring wife goes out of her way to destroy people's lives, simply because she can. And that heavy metal rocker that admitted on a talk show to raping his sister, does not actually have a sister.

And none of that even includes the C&W acts - now they . . . nah, better not!

Two terrible facts about Lady Gaga, that will set you back on your heals and make you lose all faith in humanity -

1. She really does write her own songs, but the arrangements are done by others.

2. She does not have, nor has she ever had a Great Dane.

I find this last one truly shocking and a scandal worthy of calling Gagagate! I mean, how could she try to claim that they were her own dogs in 'Pokerface' when one is a famous show dog from California, even with his own website?

Now that is the real scandal!!!

(As for Mr Fusari, the other side of the story is that she and her father signed a contract with him that contravened US employment law, so Universal (?) told them they can just tear it up - but that's just a story and like I said, "Don't believe, don't believe, don't believe the hype!")

I don't believe anything you say since your bollocks on the X-Factor thread.
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby johnny h » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:47 pm

"Rob Fusari is a record producer and songwriter, possibly best known for his work with American recording artist Lady Gaga."

Says it all.

I think Lady Gaga is one of the best pop acts around at the moment - writes her own music, has ridiculous imagery, great at publicity and giving interesting quotes...
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby The Red Bladder » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:32 pm

ken long wrote:I don't believe anything you say since your bollocks on the X-Factor thread.

Ooo - that hurt!

The person who was supposed to win, didn't, after a newspaper report of fixing put supporters off. The one thing people don't believe is that you can't fix the actual vote. Now, nobody believes me and I'm trying to live it down!

But you can believe me on the Great Dane - I have deep connections within Great Dane circles. I have met and shaken hands, er paws with some of the industry's leading Great Danes. Not that any of the heathens around here would believe me!
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby hollowsun » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:28 pm

Frisonic wrote:I am told by people close enough to that project would not take a song unless the songwriter agreed to let them take writing credits. That's business.
Fixed that for you!

At the risk of extreme heresy...

In much the same way as RedOne influences her Gaganess's 'sound' and arrangements, etc., ermmm, so did, ermmm, George Martin with the Beatles, very substantially!! But The Fabs wrote the songs.

There's a fine dividing line between the actual songwriting process, arrangement and production and they cross over. There are some fine (and classic) songs which, in many ways, owe their success to the arrangement done by anonymous jobbing arrangers who didn't get a penny in royalties. One could cite the Fisher vs Brooker lawsuit over Procul Harum's 'Whiter Shade Of Pale' - would that have been as memorable a record without that dominating, pseudo baroque organ part? But Fisher wrote the song.

Somewhat tangentially, just look what Delia Derbyshire did with Ron Grainer's Dr Who theme. Originally scored for a small band/orchestra. Ron wrote the music, Delia transformed it into a seminal peice of early electronica but it doesn't detract from Ron's writing.

However, I'm with you on those 'artists' who come into the studio with a line of inane lyrics and a vague melody and expect the producer, session musos, etc., to turn it into a song while they waltz out for some retail therapy. But Stefani Germanotta is not one of those - she comes in with complete songs she has written and she and her team work together on them to turn out a hit.

Unless my chum (who works with her most days) is lying to me, you're just going to have to take my word for it!
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Scramble » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:43 pm

>But Fisher wrote the song.

You mean Brooker.

I don't know much about Lady Gaga, but I do know that when she was a nobody she was in a band playing original material on the live circuit. None of the Spice Girls ever did that.
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby hollowsun » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:14 am

Scramble wrote:>But Fisher wrote the song.

You mean Brooker.
Well spotted!

Scramble wrote:I don't know much about Lady Gaga, but I do know that when she was a nobody she was in a band playing original material on the live circuit.
She was indeed. She's (allegedly) been playing piano since the age of four, turned down her place at Juilliard to take a place at the Tisch School Of Performing Arts and then embarked on a 'career', firstly in fairly ordinary rock-ish bands but then moved into doing her own burlesque shows, gigging regularly round NY and elsewhere until she was spotted. It took her quite a while to become an overnight success!

Scramble wrote:None of the Spice Girls ever did that.
Quite. Other manufactured bands too - just assembled through auditions because they looked the part.

I think this highlights the mediocre insanity of the whole thing...

Boyzone's first TV appeareance

I love the cynical sarcasm of the presenter!

Take That were a little different though because Gary Barlow HAD at least been schlepping round the northern clubs for a few years .... which is tough!
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby Frisonic » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:15 am

Like I say, fair enough. But I'm still a bit hazy about where the Great Dane comes into it?
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Re: "The self engineered demise of the record labels"

Postby hollowsun » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:28 am

Frisonic wrote:But I'm still a bit hazy about where the Great Dane comes into it?
That was Red Bladder's defense in the court case as well!
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