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Is Pete Townsend Right?

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Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby sthum » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:49 pm

What do you think?

The comments at the bottom of the article are interesting.

Please see here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8861959/Pete-Townshend-Apple-bleeds-artists-like-a-digital-vampire.html





BTW... I searched the SOS website to see if this had been discussed before.. I couldn't find anything?
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Richie Royale » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:03 pm

I can't see the video, but does he not realise that iTunes isn't a record label? It is a record shop, like Our Price or Woolworths used to be. Could you but the stuff John Peel played in Woolworths? No.

There are plenty of digital labels continuing the independent movement using iTunes and Beatport among other sites to release obscure music that would not be supported by big labels. The synopsis of the article makes him seem out of touch.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby sthum » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:00 pm

The general gist of what I think he's trying to say is that Apple should be stepping up to the plate to do more for said emerging song writers/artists.. Instead of just being happy to take their 30%. To be 'socially responsible' and help nurture/educate 'quality' future talent.
Maybe this is an opportunity for Apple to become some kinda new age type Record Company? Townsend has some solid ideas!
If the old model is truly dying (which it appears to be) then something new is required and as soon as possible please...

The amazing thing here is.. and this says a lot about Apple as a company (or at least on how they are perceived) that we should expect anything at all from them?

Of all the mega companies in the world.. Apple could well be the only one who would even consider it?

I don't really believe that they are 'raping song writers'.. I'm only too glad that I've got my old iPhone to sing/hum my new ideas into, which then enables me to rework that idea with GarageBand or Logic 9 on my shiny iMac.
If anything they've maybe made the initial part of the process easier.. from writing to promoting.

I'm thankful that Apple exists.. I'm not a super fanboy by any means.. I just appreciate how easy it is these days to get a song down.. the Apple way! Maybe that does make me a fan boy.. who knew??
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Richie Royale » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:23 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer

This is one reason why Apple never set up a record label.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby feline1 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:58 pm

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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby * User requested deletion 2 * » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:08 pm

Possibly Gary Glitter?
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Beat Poet » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:13 pm

Bloody hell, the ad was longer than the vid, I was expecting a proper rant.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Guest » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:59 am

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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Shambolic Charm » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:10 am

Did record shops take a 30% net cut? that is after all their overheads i.e. shop maintenance; storage;leasing; transport; staff wages; insurance etc. etc.
Ok maybe Apple pay a few staff to manage Itunes but 30% is a massive amount to cream off, more fitting of a record company than a distributor.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby narcoman » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:19 am

Shambolic Charm wrote:Did record shops take a 30% net cut? that is after all their overheads i.e. shop maintenance; leasing; transport; staff wages; insurance etc. etc.

Far more.

Markup on records was/is 80-120%. Dealer price for a £14 CD: £6 - £7. Only supermarkets could do the big discounts.... Having done the maths a few times I reckon Apple should reduce to 25%.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Mixedup » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:20 am

feline1 wrote:


FFS. Was that really necessary? Can we keep this on topic, before the mods come and lock the thread?
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Shambolic Charm » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:21 am

Net? consider that the shops had wastage, items that didn't sell or had to be sold at cost. plus all the other expenses
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby narcoman » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:22 am

agreed. Mods... you need to delete those two dubious posts.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby The Red Bladder » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:36 am

You are forgetting that most CDs and LPs were on 'sale-or-return.'
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby sthum » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:08 pm

Where's Hugh....
Yes.. PLEASE remove those few slanderous comments re Mr Townsend!

Before someone gets sued! And it won't be me:)
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Frisonic » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:28 pm

I know what he is trying to say and he has been making this point at every opportunity recently. But iTunes is the wrong example because it actually generates money for musicians. He should be directing his ire exclusively at social networking sites and ISPs. They are the one who insist we should all be providing them with free content. They are the ones who signpost people to pirating sites. They are the 'vampires'.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby feline1 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:35 pm

Frisonic wrote:I know what he is trying to say and he has been making this point at every opportunity recently. But iTunes is the wrong example because it actually generates money for musicians. He should be directing his ire exclusively at social networking sites and ISPs. They are the one who insist we should all be providing them with free content. They are the ones who signpost people to pirating sites. They are the 'vampires'.


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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Dynamic Mike » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:57 pm

sthum wrote:Where's Hugh....
Yes.. PLEASE remove those few slanderous comments re Mr Townsend!

Before someone gets sued! And it won't be me:)

He publicly stated that on one occasion he had used a credit card to access a website advertising child pornography. In a statement issued by his lawyer, Townshend said, "I accept that I was wrong to access this site, and that by doing so, I broke the law, and I have accepted the caution that the police have given me."

That's better. Nothing slanderous there. Had Gary Glitter been better respected as an artist perhaps we'd have more people leaping to his defence too.

DM
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby ken long » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:55 pm

"wild west"?

the man obviously doesn't understand the internet.

apple is like a distributor. not a record label.

last time I checked, distributors didn't nurture talent.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby uphillbothways » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:16 pm

In ye olden days, a perfectly reasonable Manufacturing & Distribution deal would be a 50/50 split, on top of which the retailer would make at least 100% markup. As an independent artist with no label support, you'd be giving away at least 75% of the retail price. Even with a distribution deal, it was still ultimately your responsibility to get retailers to place an order.

iTunes offers a superlative retail experience for a comparatively tiny margin. CDBaby will get you into all the major stores and do much of your accounting for 9% net. Tunecore will get you into most of the stores for £30 per album.

We've never had it so good.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Frisonic » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:06 pm

Dynamic Mike wrote:
sthum wrote:Where's Hugh....
Yes.. PLEASE remove those few slanderous comments re Mr Townsend!

Before someone gets sued! And it won't be me:)

He publicly stated that on one occasion he had used a credit card to access a website advertising child pornography. In a statement issued by his lawyer, Townshend said, "I accept that I was wrong to access this site, and that by doing so, I broke the law, and I have accepted the caution that the police have given me."

That's better. Nothing slanderous there. Had Gary Glitter been better respected as an artist perhaps we'd have more people leaping to his defence too.

DM

Regarding that incident it is also worth revisiting the reason Mr Townsend gave for visiting the site in the first place: He was doing research for a book he was working on at the time, I think a largely autobiographical work. So lets consider how likely that was... He has often alluded to the possibility that he was himself a victim of abuse as a child. If this was the case he wouldn't be the first person to have buried memories of the events themselves. In the course of researching a book anybody would look in all the likely places to understand the subject matter. This is the same Pete Townsend that wrote 'I'm a boy' and 'Tommy' - the kind of work that might well have been informed by a bit of subconscious trauma. This is also the same Pete Townsend who has always taken a rather 'journalistic' approach to song writing. He has always done his research to make sure his material was plausible. So, should we believe him? Well, the police did. I remember at the time that I found it took about seven nano seconds to accept his version of events as being obviously correct. Whatever Pete Townsend is he ain't one of those.

The worst of it was he gave up on the book as a result of the arrest and finding himself on the sex offenders register. I have a suspicion it was going to be an important book.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:28 pm

Gents, can we stick to Mr Townsend's comments relating to the music business please, and leave the rest to the Daily Mail?

Ta

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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby feline1 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:02 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:Gents, can we stick to Mr Townsend's comments relating to the music business please, and leave the rest to the Daily Mail?

Ta

hugh

Why? I think the fact that Townshend has been cautioned for using the Internet to download child pornography is quite relevant to his credibility as a spokesman for how iTunes is a 'sucking vampire'
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby chris... » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:08 pm

feline1 wrote: Why? I think the fact that Townshend has been cautioned for using the Internet [...]

Not convinced the Internet is relevant. Do you recon his credibility would be any different had he obtained the material some other way e.g from an acquaintance via a memory stick ?
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby * User requested deletion * » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:09 pm

feline1 wrote: a 'sucking vampire'

Why the qualification?
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby feline1 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:25 pm

Niaeve (sic) Newbie wrote:
feline1 wrote: a 'sucking vampire'

Why the qualification?

I don't know, ask Christopher Lee!
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Frisonic » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:31 pm

feline1 wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:Gents, can we stick to Mr Townsend's comments relating to the music business please, and leave the rest to the Daily Mail?

Ta

hugh

Why? I think the fact that Townshend has been cautioned for using the Internet to download child pornography is quite relevant to his credibility as a spokesman for how iTunes is a 'sucking vampire'

I think its more relevant to discussing how creative people should best use the internet and protect themselves against falling foul of the law when researching taboo subjects. Answer: not the way he did it! But that would be off topic, although perhaps an interesting subject for another thread.

Townsend's views on iTunes, although I think he is wrong, shouldn't be ignored. He sold a great many records over the years through vinyl, tape and CD sales in real record shops, at a time when record labels invested more resources in developing/nurturing talent. He probably sells plenty of back catalog through iTunes (although today almost every 'Who' activity tends to be a fund raiser for some charity or another). I think he's mostly worried about where that role the record labels took upon themselves back in the day is going to be resourced in the future. But its not iTunes's job. In my view its a non question anyway because today's new talent is not starved of an opportunity to get studio time and develop itself. To my mind that used to be the greatest thing about getting signed back in the day but it no longer has the same value. True, today's new talent might find its not a very good studio. There might not be anybody who knows how to drive it. There might not be a producer guiding the work. But neither is there anyone to tell you you're not getting in and having made a record there are record labels who will market your product for you. Provided it's good enough, fits in with their overall marketing strategy and most importantly doesn't make anything else they have already invested in look bad.

There are vampires out there and they are sucking away at all our blood, but iTunes isn't one of them.

If I could ask Pete Townsend just one question about the music business it would be "how much did you make from total record sales over the years compared to what you've earned from every time someone broadcasts an episode of CSI"? I'd love to know the answer to that one!
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby sthum » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:04 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:Gents, can we stick to Mr Townsend's comments relating to the music business please, and leave the rest to the Daily Mail?

Ta

hugh


Quite right.. Let's not undermine the seriousness of 'the subject' with idle gossip..

This is a music related forum after all.. My original post only relates to the mans comments regarding something we should all be very concerned about!
I don't care about his 'Vampire sucking' comments.. I'm more interested in everything else he said!
Just how many other high profile names (apart from Sir Bob) in the music world are taking time to highlight these very issues... not too many I bet?

I'm no fan of Townsends or 'The Who'... never could get into it. But the guy is clearly still well respected by those that matter in the music biz.. and they are listening to him.. why else was he asked to give a speech at such an important event and all in the name of the late great Mr Peel.

He made some very valid points re why it's important to have some kind of 'John Peel' style outlet for new hopes.
This is what we need NOW.. ASAP! A 'REAL' filter system and that's one thing JP was brilliant at! God.. I can still hear his voice now... A remarkable man who worked tirelessly to get fresh alternative music out there.

He deserves a lot of credit for speaking out on behalf of all of us. We.. who are still trying to make our mark in a dying music industry should be grateful... I know I am!!
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby feline1 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:00 am

It wasn't "gossip", it is a matter of public record.
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Re: Is Pete Townsend Right?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:06 am

Ahem... rule 1. I'll not ask again.

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