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Mountain Lion

Postby Will_m » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:06 am

http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/

Seems to confirm my fears that all OS's are moving towards a more smartphone-like interface/experience. The new 'defender' is interesting though, looks suspiciously like an anti-malware utility...
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby desmond » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:12 am

Actually, contrary to your fears, I've been quite reassured as to Apple's position on Macs and OSX.

Have a read of John Gruber's report:
http://daringfireball.net/2012/02/mountain_lion

I think Apple are doing the right thing in general, and I'm pleased to hear that Macs and OS X are still important - they haven't just got bored of computers in favour of the whizz-bang touch devices. And I think they have a far better, and more consistent approach than Microsoft's Windows strategy...
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby xFasterMikeyH » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:59 am

Will_m wrote:The new 'defender' is interesting though, looks suspiciously like an anti-malware utility...
Looks suspiciously like an attempt to build an even higher wall round the garden to me, very much in support of the business model of the Mac App Store, so that developers _have_ to sell their software via Apple.
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby Dave B » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:01 am

Mikey, gatekeeper is more about security than walling in - the only 'viruses' that have hit the Mac have been unsigned things that prompt for your password. This will block that. It's less about locking in, and more about reassuring people that they are on top of the small amount of malware out there. And it's acknowledging that as the OSX platform is doing well, it will soon be a serious target for virus writers - the last thing Apple need is the same sort of problems that MS have.

Interesting approach though - some good 'consolidation' type features rather than anything new. And as they all use iCloud to sync, it seems that if you buy into the Apple way of doing things, you get a nice integrated experience. And finally a sensible use for an Apple TV!

:D
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby johnny h » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:18 am

Will_m wrote:http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/

Seems to confirm my fears that all OS's are moving towards a more smartphone-like interface/experience..

Sure it does: Confirmation bias
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby caveman82 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:57 am

johnny h wrote:
Will_m wrote:http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/

Seems to confirm my fears that all OS's are moving towards a more smartphone-like interface/experience..

Sure it does: Confirmation bias

Agree with that.

Here's a article regarding pro/creative users...

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2012/02/what-mountain-lion-will-probably-mean-to-you-as-pro-creative-users/
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby Will_m » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:59 am

johnny h wrote:
Will_m wrote:http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/

Seems to confirm my fears that all OS's are moving towards a more smartphone-like interface/experience..

Sure it does: Confirmation bias

The actual marketing for ML is that it takes inspiration from the Ipad, so I'm not sure how saying it has a more smartphone/tablet like experience shows any bias. Maybe reading my post and deducing what you have shows confirmation bias?

Not to be too negative but it is often more useful to discuss potential pitfalls than to just list things I like, for example the dovetailing of iOS and OS X means a yearly update cycle and forgive me but it seems audio developers are having enough trouble keeping updated as it is. Perhaps it would help to keep you engaged if I listed something I liked about the update, well the new 'reminders' app will help me remember not to start any discussions on the mac forum for fear of misinterpreting statements like "inspired by iPad".
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby johnny h » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:16 pm

Will_m wrote:
johnny h wrote:
Will_m wrote:http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/

Seems to confirm my fears that all OS's are moving towards a more smartphone-like interface/experience..

Sure it does: Confirmation bias

The actual marketing for ML is that it takes inspiration from the Ipad, so I'm not sure how saying it has a more smartphone/tablet like experience shows any bias. Maybe reading my post and deducing what you have shows confirmation bias?

Not to be too negative but it is often more useful to discuss potential pitfalls than to just list things I like, for example the dovetailing of iOS and OS X means a yearly update cycle and forgive me but it seems audio developers are having enough trouble keeping updated as it is. Perhaps it would help to keep you engaged if I listed something I liked about the update, well the new 'reminders' app will help me remember not to start any discussions on the mac forum for fear of misinterpreting statements like "inspired by iPad".

The sky is falling... abandon the Apple ship...get out while you can... all is lost ... :)
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby Richie Royale » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:22 pm

I haven't left Leopard yet!
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby Guy Johnson » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:59 pm

Same here, and I see absolutely no need or point in doing so.
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby Will_m » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:01 pm

johnny h wrote:
The sky is falling... abandon the Apple ship...get out while you can... all is lost ... :)

Grow up johnny, I've made some valid points, which is evident from your sarcastic reply. I actually stated in my first post that my concern wasn't just about OS X but about new OS's in general. Although this new batch will likely make no difference to audio production its an indication of where development is going. Just ask Final Cut X users how they like their new iMovie version.
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby desmond » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:44 pm

Will_m wrote:Just ask Final Cut X users how they like their new iMovie version.


A quick note here: Do you say that because you are an FCP user? Or is this just a generic viewpoint based on some internet griping where the first version was released? (we're now three versions on from that initial release).

Because, while it still has a few (major) shortcomings, FCPX is so so so much better in many ways than the crusty old, outdated FCP was. And it's just at the beginning of it's lifecycle - a few versions down the road and it's again going to be the app others are taking a *lot* of design cues from.

Range based keywording, smart keyword collections, automatic camera syncing, amazing multicam editing - there is so much good stuff in there where the ageing, Cocoa 32-bit legacy FCP was dreadful.

The majority of grumbling was A) omg they've killed the app I was heavily invested in, B) the new thing looks a bit like iMovie and doesn't yet do everything the old version did (so don't upgrade yet) and C) omg they've changed the editing workflow a bit and I don't like change, change is bad.

I loved the good things about FCP, but the awful things were incredibly frustrating. And FCPX is a rethink that fixes all of the awful things (but still hasn't yet got *everything* in there.)

I now return you to your regular program... ;)
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby forumuser695516 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:31 pm


I read that (And responded there). It is reassuring, to a point. IE, this gatekeeper hoopla is really nothing to worry about.
But to me its fairly clear what concerns the pro/creative people. It's what Apple haven't done/said, rather than what they have. I don't see anything at all that would interest a pro/creative user.
Macs were generally thought of as THE creative tools of choice for making the content. Be it video or music, images etc etc. Now Apple are punting the Mac as the tool to sell and present that content to you, rather than selling you the best tool to create the content.
I mean really.. Is there anything in 10.8 what-so-ever that would interest a Logic user? Not that I see. But I do see all kinds of waffle about twitter integration and n00b friendly swipe gestures and bollocks like that.

Im still on 10.6.8 too. And i'll hold on to it until I have to upgrade, due to needing to keep my Apple email address. So I guess I'll have some choices to make in the summer eh!
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby Will_m » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:43 pm

desmond wrote:
A quick note here: Do you say that because you are an FCP user? Or is this just a generic viewpoint based on some internet griping where the first version was released? (we're now three versions on from that initial release).

I understand what you mean, there was certainly a pretty big backlash upon its release but I think a lot of the uproar was justified, I don't do any video editing but work with a lot of editors and they all seem to tell me the same thing, some great workflow/interface improvements but some massive downsides that make it unusable in its current form. Not being able to load old projects was pretty high on the list but my biggest one was no OMF support as this was a feature that is pretty vital in my workflow. I understand there are workarounds but it seems like some of the pro features were sacrificed.
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby desmond » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:00 pm

~Paul wrote:Macs were generally thought of as THE creative tools of choice for making the content. Be it video or music, images etc etc. Now Apple are punting the Mac as the tool to sell and present that content to you, rather than selling you the best tool to create the content.

Yeah. But back in those old says, the pro creative market were probably the biggest market segment.

These days, like it or not, Apple are very much a consumer focused company, and are marketing accordingly. But marketing messages aren't reality, as we all know. "Buy another Mac - you can continue to run all the same software you're already running" isn't much of a value proposition.. :)

So just because Apple's marketing department aren't really reaching to us, doesn't mean the products they make aren't useful, as we all know. It's just that the modern Apple is in many ways a very different Apple to how it used to be in the 90s.
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby desmond » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:07 pm

Will_m wrote:I understand what you mean, there was certainly a pretty big backlash upon its release but I think a lot of the uproar was justified,

Sure.

Will_m wrote:I don't do any video editing but work with a lot of editors and they all seem to tell me the same thing, some great workflow/interface improvements but some massive downsides that make it unusable in its current form.

To some people, this was clearly the case. But their existing FCP licenses still work, so there's no immediate need to upgrade - check out the new version on the side, and over time, when it starts to be able to fullfill your needs, switch. If for whatever reason it is not a viable opion, then people can either stick with FCP for the time being, which is getting increasingly out of date, but eventually sooner or later they'll have to switch - and there's no doubt Premiere and Media Composer have gained users since the FCPX release.

However, Apple have also sold quite a lot of copies of FCPX, too...

Will_m wrote:Not being able to load old projects was pretty high on the list but my biggest one was no OMF support as this was a feature that is pretty vital in my workflow. I understand there are workarounds but it seems like some of the pro features were sacrificed.

Sure, and we all have different features that are important to us. Remember, this is a ground up, complete rewrite from core architecture up - that's a massive design and development achievement, and resources are finite - even Apple's. It's simply not possible to do everything at once, so you have to prioritise. Sure, to some editors, they would demand that Apple's priorities be different, but it is what it is. And Apple seem to be working quite hard at releasing timely, free updates with major new features (which up to now, they had a policy of not doing - they'd only release bugfix and very minor feature updates, and leave the large new features to major releases - mostly starting with reasons of Sarbanes-Oxley).

Anyway, I don't want to threadjack too much (which I probably already have, but...)

And yes, I would have loved to be able to import FCP projects on release. At least we can now, with an inexpensive app...
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby chris... » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:30 pm

desmond wrote:leave the large new features to major releases - mostly starting with reasons of Sarbanes-Oxley

That always seemed weird - plenty of other companies seemed to manage to release significant new features as free updates. It just seemed to be Apple that didn't. I never knew whether to believe their citing of SOX or not.
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby Exalted Wombat » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:54 pm

~Paul wrote:
Macs were generally thought of as THE creative tools of choice for making the content.

Well, that's how they were advertised. We disn't ALL fall for it :-)
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby Scope » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:41 am

No, we didn't all fall for it.
Some of us spent years of our lives hammering away at Windows, praying one day, it will actually work properly,
only to find each new OS is another labyrinth of stress inducing problems.

Even Win8 installer has a splash screen telling you - "you can now fix your Windows problems online, quicker than ever".
Really ?
What problems are these then ????

No, we didn't all fall for it, we just wised up and bought a bloody Mac because they WORK.

Lion, ML, FCP-X ?
Bring it on, it will be better than anything MS can do.
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby johnny h » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:23 pm

Scope wrote:No, we didn't all fall for it.
Some of us spent years of our lives hammering away at Windows, praying one day, it will actually work properly,
only to find each new OS is another labyrinth of stress inducing problems.

Even Win8 installer has a splash screen telling you - "you can now fix your Windows problems online, quicker than ever".
Really ?
What problems are these then ????

No, we didn't all fall for it, we just wised up and bought a bloody Mac because they WORK.

Lion, ML, FCP-X ?
Bring it on, it will be better than anything MS can do.

Lots of people fall the specs trap: x.xx ghz processor xgb ram - cheaper on a pc = mac is a ripoff... no! You pay for the design, inside and out. Its not designed so you 'fix your problems online', its designed to just work, and in general it achieves this to a very high standard (far higher than any other operating system).

Its so nice to have all the inbuilt software to be such great quality too - chat, mail, safari, iphoto, pdf reader, iso manager etc. Its such a ballache to find this stuff for the pc and its normally not as good or you have to pay for it or put up with crappy ads. You really can just plug it in and its a great computer already. One of my PC owning friends has a newish printer, and has spent hours checking forums, reinstalling drivers etc but cannot get anything to print. I bring my Macbook over there, plug it in and its works immediately. No questions, no driver signing, no dire warnings. Just works, like the adverts say.

There's a queue of people waiting to slaughter Apple right, but their ridiculously massive growth and success over the last few years has left them waiting quite some time ...
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby Dishpan » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:42 pm

> Lion, ML, FCP-X ?
Bring it on, it will be better than anything MS can do.

Unless you're bothered about audio performance in which case it'll perform as abysmally as every version of OsX has.

I use MacOS at home as I do prefer the interface. I just don't have this desperate desire to constantly bash other companies. Same as if I use keyboard x I don't have the need to bash keyboard y.


> One of my PC owning friends has a newish printer, and has spent hours checking forums, reinstalling drivers etc but cannot get anything to print. I bring my Macbook over there, plug it in and its works immediately. No questions, no driver signing, no dire warnings. Just works, like the adverts say.

Canon here with opposite experience. Windows machine all share flawlessly and print ok, Macs won't unless I connect with a cable every time and constantly loses connection. Spent ages checking forums same as your mate who has problems on PC.

We can all find examples of people with problems, it proves nothing.
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby johnny h » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:51 am

Dishpan wrote:> Lion, ML, FCP-X ?
Bring it on, it will be better than anything MS can do.

Unless you're bothered about audio performance in which case it'll perform as abysmally as every version of OsX has.

I use MacOS at home as I do prefer the interface. I just don't have this desperate desire to constantly bash other companies. Same as if I use keyboard x I don't have the need to bash keyboard y.


> One of my PC owning friends has a newish printer, and has spent hours checking forums, reinstalling drivers etc but cannot get anything to print. I bring my Macbook over there, plug it in and its works immediately. No questions, no driver signing, no dire warnings. Just works, like the adverts say.

Canon here with opposite experience. Windows machine all share flawlessly and print ok, Macs won't unless I connect with a cable every time and constantly loses connection. Spent ages checking forums same as your mate who has problems on PC.

We can all find examples of people with problems, it proves nothing.

One example yes, but given a hundred examples of general 'doing stuff' and its pretty clear what the better operating system is and what is more likely to 'just work'.

The audio performance is an issue - windows does seem to run low latency a little better, though logic seems to get around this problem perfectly well. This is why I'm still persisting with my archaic looking desktop machine. Im hoping the next MBP update will render it totally obsolete.
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby desmond » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:57 am

Let's not turn this thread into a Windows vs OSX debate, or religious war, eh?


We all know who won that one ages ago...; )
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby DAGGILARR » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:13 am

desmond wrote:
The majority of grumbling was A) omg they've killed the app I was heavily invested in, B) the new thing looks a bit like iMovie and doesn't yet do everything the old version did (so don't upgrade yet) and C) omg they've changed the editing workflow a bit and I don't like change, change is bad.

I now return you to your regular program... ;)

Change is the only true evidence of life .......
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Re: Mountain Lion

Postby Kwackman » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:37 am

desmond wrote:Let's not turn this thread into a Windows vs OSX debate, or religious war, eh?


You're a very naughty boy, Desmond :-)
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