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Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

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Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby porthoss78 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:52 pm

Hi,

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. Just saw this post about a developer preview of Logic X sandboxed:

http://www.analogindustries.com/b1863/Sandbolloxed

So, if it is true, it looks like some more changes are coming...

Cheers
J
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby desmond » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:18 am

Yep. The current versions of GB are sandboxed already, LPX is partially sandboxed.

There are some developer threads on various forums including KVR that go into issues plugin developers are having with the Apple sandboxed hosts, like not being able to store prefs in the gloabl prefs directory and sandboxed plugins can only write to specific folders unless explicitly granted permission, and other issues.

But yes, LPX will go this way too, and it's one more thing plugin developers are going to have to cater for...
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Guy Johnson » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:30 am

er … Sandboxed??? Googled and still no wiser.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby stratquebec » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:40 am

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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Guy Johnson » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:44 pm

Er … that's what I found and I'm not sure how this relates to Logic and its use ...
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby desmond » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:12 pm

Guy Johnson wrote:Er … that's what I found and I'm not sure how this relates to Logic and its use ...

Up to now, a computer application running on your computer can do anything - it could use any resources your computer has access to, open internet connections, read and write anywhere on the disk, talk to low level connected hardware etc.

Sandboxed apps cannot do anything they wish - they will be able to do a limited amount of things that they have explicit permission to do, as a security precaution. So now, running a plugin inside a sandboxed app also means that the plugin cannot do whatever it wants - plugins that have large sample libraries on external drives, or save preferences, or have copy protection, or talk to external hardware cannot do that stuff freely. This has significant implications to both developers and end users.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:32 pm

An excellent and succinct explanation -- thanks Desmond.

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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Wease » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:58 pm

Desmond is brilliant at explaining things that are difficult to explain...and one of the main reasons I frequent these forums...thanks for your insight des!

Does this mean (directed to Desmond) that kontakt and others are gonna have issues with logic??
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby desmond » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:25 pm

Wease wrote:Desmond is brilliant at explaining things that are difficult to explain...and one of the main reasons I frequent these forums...thanks for your insight des!


Well thanks! :blush:
I just like to geek out on this stuff like many of us do - it's far better that than watching mindless TV or something ;)

Wease wrote:Does this mean (directed to Desmond) that kontakt and others are gonna have issues with logic??


At this point, it's a bit early to see how things will shake out. If you want to get a feel for some of the issues developers are having checking their current products in the sandboxed developer preview of LPX, have a read through some of the threads indicated above. Different developers have different issues according to the needs of their products and the way they have implemented them, and are coming to different solutions. And I'm sure that more issues will come to light over time as developers discover them and Apple change the behaviours and rules of the sandboxing requirements.

Some won't be affected much, and may only have to do some minor updates to be fully compatible. Others may be affected somewhat more seriously, potentially requiring some significant re-engineering of their products, or even dropping them altogether if the issues are too impacting. Others simply won't play by Apple's rules I'm sure.

Although I understand the reasoning behind Apple moving toward a more sandboxed model, it's a shame that some of these restrictions are going to cause problems for developers in particular - as Chris Randall says, retooling existing products that already work perfectly well because the rules of the game have changed is really irritating, when that effort could go into improving the products or creating new ones.

It's a double-edged sword really - I'm perfectly willing to trust reputable developers to have code running on my system that could do all kinds of nasty stuff, because it's extremely unlikely any reputable developer would do that. At the same time, putting my tin foil hat on - while unlikely - it's not unfeasible that I could download an update to a plugin I own, and have it silently routed through a man-in-the-middle attack and get NSA spyware or other nasties injected into that file - and once it's running, the lack of a sandbox means that an attacker can now have full control of my system.

Now for some things, the effects on the user may be minimal - for instance, the first time you run a plugin it will ask you what resources it needs and you will explicitly give permission for those things. In other cases, it might be annoying - for example, Apple are suggesting that all plugins or music apps should only be allowed to write to ~/Music/.

Now, personally I'd like to only store project files in this folder, and not litter it with sample libraries, random plugin preferences and settings, preset and sound files and everything else related to music production - I'm using a laptop and it ain't all going to fit on the internal drive, for sure.

Now there may be easy solutions for these things, or more painful ones - we simply don't know yet (and I can't say I've researched this topic thoroughly). But for sure, it *will* impact developers and users in ways which at this point are a little uncertain. There is always a compromise between security and convenience, unfortunately.

As always though, it's wise to stay ahead of developments but not rush into updating before fully assessing the implications and impact into your own workflow, particularly at the front end of yet another transition process - best to observe from the sidelines for a while and watch the issues shake out, before taking the plunge, unless there are really really really good reasons to jump in (or you just like the drama ;)
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby johnny h » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:32 pm

porthoss78 wrote:Hi,

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. Just saw this post about a developer preview of Logic X sandboxed:

http://www.analogindustries.com/b1863/Sandbolloxed

So, if it is true, it looks like some more changes are coming...

Cheers
J

Great idea, should have been like this from the start. The less programs with full access to my system the better. Especially lazy plugin manufacturers and their insidious copy protection systems.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby porthoss78 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:59 pm

Thanks for the info Desmond, I also wasn't 100% on what the implications would be.

I'm all for extra security as long as it's not going to impact negatively on the amount of AU plugins available. Gforce Software are currently not supporting AAX due to the amount of work and time to port to yet another type of plugin, I could see a few more smaller companies adopting a similar outlook.

Hopefully, the size of the Logic user base will make it worth while for most companies to port.

I can't see Apple stopping people from installing sample libraries etc. in a different directory though, it would surely push Logic out of the 'Pro App' category.

Thanks again
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Matthew Miller » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:11 pm

Perhaps the sandboxing approach could lead to opening up the App Store to plugin and sample library developers, which would give them copy protection and less tech support issues due caused by authorization problems.

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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Studio Support Gnome » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:54 am

to be honest, I'm sticking with Logic 9, I hate LPX… eye strain central and depressing….

I have a good grasp of the concept, and how it works…..
sandboxing will create complete bloody havoc with plug in developers, and be a complete pain in the ass for advanced users as well……


(I have up to date OS installs on partitions on my Laptop for testing purposes, but the studio Mac pro, is still running snow leopard , which works fine, LP9.18 which works fine, PT9, which works fine…. as does the Liquid Mix, and a heap of other "out dated" but good sounding bits of software and hardware…. )

there is a lot to be said for old, but tried and tested…. reliable, stable, predictable….
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Guy Johnson » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:29 am

Thanks for the info, Desmond. Pellucid, as always...
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby MikeW. » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:22 am

Matthew Miller wrote:Perhaps the sandboxing approach could lead to opening up the App Store to plugin and sample library developers, which would give them copy protection and less tech support issues due caused by authorization problems.

Matt

Apple would first have to change the app store submission guidelines. Currently only apps are allowed which do not depend on extra software that needs to be downloaded or installed. That being said once certain Keyboard/Sampler plug-ins are sandboxed the plug-ins can be offered as stand-alone versions in the Mac app store.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby MikeW. » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:48 am

johnny h wrote:

Great idea, should have been like this from the start. The less programs with full access to my system the better. Especially lazy plugin manufacturers and their insidious copy protection systems.


Should Apple ever require all applications to be sandboxed to run on OS X it might be the bitter end of iLok but it will also mean that you won't be able to run many of the great free utilities like 'OnyX' and 'CarbonCopyCloner' which keep your system running smoothly and allow you to create easy backups of your hard drive. You will also have to live without many advanced features of mature apps with long development histories. It will make your life safer from malware but it will not make your life easier.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby DAGGILARR » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:54 am

If anyone were to find this too much of a PITA and it were to threaten key plug ins, what DAW would you migrate to, from Logic, and why?
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Stephen Bennett » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:37 am

DAGGILARR wrote:If anyone were to find this too much of a PITA and it were to threaten key plug ins, what DAW would you migrate to, from Logic, and why?


This surely wont just affect Logic Pro - all applications will eventually need to be sandboxed to work on the Mac. This move makes sense for computer manufacturers as they can see how effective tighter controls are at preventing viri and other malware affecting iPads and other closed systems.

Microsoft will surely implement these controls too - the effect on computer stability and security will far outweigh limitations of access for most users.

The question you should be asking is which Linux - based DAW you'll be moving to. :beamup:

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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Richie Royale » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:52 am

DAGGILARR wrote:If anyone were to find this too much of a PITA and it were to threaten key plug ins, what DAW would you migrate to, from Logic, and why?

I have always been on Cubase and I'm sticking to it with Snow Leopard for the forseeable future.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby The Red Bladder » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:54 am

Stephen Bennett wrote:The question you should be asking is which Linux - based DAW you'll be moving to.

A brilliant question!

Problem - The top DAWs (measured in user base for prosumers and professionals) are Logic, CuBase, Reaper, ProTools, Ableton and Studio One. Those six account for 75% of all DAW usage and AFAIK, none are on Linux. (And before anybody asks, no I can't divulge where those figures came from!)

Fact One - Logic is the number one DAW right across all platforms and accounts for a massive chunk of professional use for audio on Macs. Until this 'sandboxing' malarkey appeared, we always assumed that Logic, Garageband and FC were only there to help to sell Apples. It now seems that security for iPads and consumer stuff like that is more important than the sale of Macs (or am I reading that incorrectly?)

Fact Two - The DAW market is small and getting smaller. The user base may be expanding, but the rising stars have been the budget packages like Reaper and Studio One, both of which have become Big Beasts, almost overnight, after years of very slow yet steady development. Both have been making steady progress into the Mac market, but both rely on PC users for nearly all their user base and revenues. Both have tiny development teams who have better things to do, than worry about their small Mac user base.

So looking at all the above, that just leaves CuBase with a development team large enough to move to play in Apple's sandbox in a timely manner. The others may follow, but would almost certainly hang back until they thought that they have to.

It may be a bit like the AAX thing - many developers just said 'Why bother?'
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Jumpeyspyder » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:18 am

Hi All

I can see a certain amount of work will be required by developers, but I don't think there will be a major problem.

Mostly it will be a case of ensuring that plug-ins are installed to a specified plugins folder that Logic will have permissions to access, and then giving the plug-in rights to access any external sample data etc.

Where development is harder, developers will release a new compatible plugin and charge us for a few new features to make it more palatable.

As always, with Apple, it will be a case of waiting and seeing what happens.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby desmond » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:21 am

The Red Bladder wrote:Problem - The top DAWs (measured in user base for prosumers and professionals) are Logic, CuBase, Reaper, ProTools, Ableton and Studio One. Those six account for 75% of all DAW usage and AFAIK, none are on Linux.

Studio One has a higher userbase than DP, or Sonar? Interesting...

The Red Bladder wrote:Fact One - Logic is the number one DAW right across all platforms and accounts for a massive chunk of professional use for audio on Macs. Until this 'sandboxing' malarkey appeared, we always assumed that Logic, Garageband and FC were only there to help to sell Apples. It now seems that security for iPads and consumer stuff like that is more important than the sale of Macs (or am I reading that incorrectly?)

System security and stability is a concern and it seems like consumer awareness of security issues is increasing - due in part, no doubt, to the recent and ongoing NSA/GCHQ whistleblowing shenanigans, and the very real threat of things like Cryptolocker, which is one of the worst-case security threats since exploits started to occur in large scale over the internets.

Sandboxing for everything will likely become a standard feature for all OS's and largely makes sense, as long as there is not too much friction to consumers. For the majority of the casual users, it is 100% a good idea, but as is often the way, things are a little more complicated for power users, who usually demand a lot more of their system and tools and (usually) run their systems more responsibly.

The Red Bladder wrote:Both have been making steady progress into the Mac market, but both rely on PC users for nearly all their user base and revenues. Both have tiny development teams who have better things to do, than worry about their small Mac user base.

I guess this explains why DP eventually got ported to Windows, if their existing userbase is so small...

The Red Bladder wrote:It may be a bit like the AAX thing - many developers just said 'Why bother?'

Indeed.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby desmond » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:24 am

Jumpeyspyder wrote:I can see a certain amount of work will be required by developers, but I don't think there will be a major problem.

Mostly it will be a case of ensuring that plug-ins are installed to a specified plugins folder that Logic will have permissions to access, and then giving the plug-in rights to access any external sample data etc.

Where development is harder, developers will release a new compatible plugin and charge us for a few new features to make it more palatable.

That is basically what I expect to happen, as well.

Jumpeyspyder wrote:As always, with Apple, it will be a case of waiting and seeing what happens.

Yep. It's trickier for developers, because it's harder for them to wait and see and still deliver a viable product at a time that customers expect to run on current systems.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby The Red Bladder » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:29 pm

desmond wrote:I guess this explains why DP eventually got ported to Windows, if their existing userbase is so small.

Except that they have practically no user base on Windows, but 9% user share on Mac. A salutary lesson to all of us - playing catch-up is far too often a road to nowhere. On Windows, DP is nowhere.

Compare that with Ableton, which started on both. It has the same user base on both Mac and PC.

BTW, what do the software packages Ableton, Melodyne, Elastique, CuBase and Nuendo have in common?

Yes, you've guessed it! They all came from graduates of the mathematics department of the Technischen Universität Berlin. There's a lesson there for us, somewhere!
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby chris... » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:04 pm

The Red Bladder wrote: It now seems that security for iPads and consumer stuff like that is more important than the sale of Macs (or am I reading that incorrectly?)
You are reading this incorrectly. The issue at hand is the security of Macs, not iPads.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby desmond » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:12 pm

The Red Bladder wrote:
desmond wrote:I guess this explains why DP eventually got ported to Windows, if their existing userbase is so small.

Except that they have practically no user base on Windows, but 9% user share on Mac. A salutary lesson to all of us - playing catch-up is far too often a road to nowhere. On Windows, DP is nowhere.

Yeah, that's what I meant - that their userbase was so small, they seemingly *had* to port and get access to the PC market in order to increase their potential user base... Of course, this happened recently and it's, as you say, a long uphill climb...

BTW, what do the software packages Ableton, Melodyne, Elastique, CuBase and Nuendo have in common?

The Red Bladder wrote:Yes, you've guessed it! They all came from graduates of the mathematics department of the Technischen Universität Berlin. There's a lesson there for us, somewhere!

Yep, music/audio software has had a strong Germanic influence over the last thirty years - however, Vision, Performer, ProTools and many other audio tools have come from other places around the world too...
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby Scramble » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:18 pm

I think RB's point was that going to a proper University and studying a proper subject is a better pathway to a successful career than doing Music Tech at an ex-Poly.
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby MarkOne » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:28 pm

Although studying a proper subject at an ex-poly - when it was an actual poly! (back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth) hasn't actually done my professional career much harm either.

Note: the common denominator is of course "proper subject" :)
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby DAGGILARR » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:28 pm

The Red Bladder wrote: There's a lesson there for us, somewhere!

World DAW 3 :D
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Re: Logic - Sandboxed in the Future?

Postby The Red Bladder » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:28 pm

It's a bit of both, really. The Technische Universität Berlin began life as a polytechnic (Technische Hochschule) which was combined with a vocational school established in the 18th Century called the Royal College for Vocational Studies (Königliche Gewerbeakademie). After the war, it became the Technische Universität Berlin.

The lesson to be learnt (as far as I am concerned) is that throughout its history, it has spun off great companies and minds and these in turn has provided employment and wealth for millions. This is the direct result of the striving for excellence. Think of Cambridge and Surrey. Think of MIT. Great technical universities bring with them great wealth.

Great academic universities bring with them politicians and civil servants.
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