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Sequencer Snobbery!!!

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Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Jfin » Tue May 25, 2010 2:34 pm

Ive used Cubase for many years (SX3) but never really got on too well - After the Reaper Article in SOS (A good few issues back) I tried it - bought a licence and absolutely adore it today, everything works like a dream! Unlike Cubase!. My point is this, A couple of weeks back a band came to me to ask about my services etc. they asked if i use Pro Tools? i said no I use a little Gem of a Sequencer called Reaper -Immediately their face lost all expression! I tried to educate him with the reasons i choose Reaper over other Sequencers but to be honest i sensed he realy didnt know what i was talking about and as far as he was concerned if you dont use Cubase or Pro Tools your not really that serious about recording. This was a band looking for their first Demo CD to secure a few more gigs. I have a friend who uses Cubase and no matter how many times i try to show him how Brilliant Reaper is he wont even consider it, He's still on Cubase SX3!!)

What is it that PRo-Tools or Cubase can do that Reaper Cant

Reaper:

a. Cheap as chips (€60 for non cemmercial licence)
b. Great GUI
c. So easy to use
d. Bug free
e. Most of the features of the more expensive Sequencers (that ill ever require)
f. A helpfull Forum
g. Completely MOD firendly.


Etc etc.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby jammy jamz » Tue May 25, 2010 3:05 pm

its human nature, i think, to be wary of things that don't cost alot of money..

its sad, really, because, REAPER, is, bar none, the best, most worth the money piece of software, i've ever spent money on.

i was guilty of it myself, concerning the secondary schools i had to choose from. the provincial community college was 1/3 the price i paid to go to a privately owned college, and, hindsight being 20/20, was by far the better deal, with better job prospects and everything.

the 21st century and its economy, is a wild one, thats for sure..

does an apple taste better because it cost 1 dollar more then the other apples?

i dont think so..but, i will always wonder..

pacem
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby onesecondglance » Tue May 25, 2010 3:17 pm

sequencers are just tools. there's nothing wrong with using REAPER if that's what you like, nor Cubase if that's what you prefer.

there is such a thing as inverse snobbery. Pro Tools and Cubase have areas where they are better than REAPER. as do all other DAWs. they each have their strengths and weaknesses - that's why there's more than one on the market.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby tex » Tue May 25, 2010 3:21 pm

If anyone's really that ignorant maybe you don't need them mucking about in your studio. These days even guys in the darkest dungeons know what software does what.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Mowens800 » Tue May 25, 2010 3:26 pm

Don't tell them what you use in future. Let the work you have done previously speak for itself.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Darren Lynch » Tue May 25, 2010 3:31 pm

Arrange with Mike Senior that the next band you record using Cubase can get a profile-raising Mix Rescue in SoS (That's not a slight on your abilities). I suggest it only because you can say, with as straight a face as possible:

"Yes, this really skilled guy will add that extra 10% of magic...using Reaper"

Reaper is a marvellous piece of kit. The only realistic issue to be raised is the dominance of PT in the pro studio world, where a DAW session may one day end up. These guys do not sound like they appreciate that point.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Jfin » Tue May 25, 2010 3:41 pm

onesecondglance wrote:sequencers are just tools. there's nothing wrong with using REAPER if that's what you like, nor Cubase if that's what you prefer.

there is such a thing as inverse snobbery. Pro Tools and Cubase have areas where they are better than REAPER. as do all other DAWs. they each have their strengths and weaknesses - that's why there's more than one on the market.

OK, Reaper doesnt have a Wave Editor. But in what other areas is it Stronger? Genuinley interested!
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Jfin » Tue May 25, 2010 3:42 pm

Jfin wrote:
onesecondglance wrote:sequencers are just tools. there's nothing wrong with using REAPER if that's what you like, nor Cubase if that's what you prefer.

there is such a thing as inverse snobbery. Pro Tools and Cubase have areas where they are better than REAPER. as do all other DAWs. they each have their strengths and weaknesses - that's why there's more than one on the market.

OK, Reaper doesnt have a Wave Editor. But in what other areas is it Stronger? Genuinley interested!

Sorry i Meant to say what are Reapers weak points
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Jfin » Tue May 25, 2010 3:45 pm

Darren Lynch wrote:Arrange with Mike Senior that the next band you record using Cubase can get a profile-raising Mix Rescue in SoS (That's not a slight on your abilities). I suggest it only because you can say, with as straight a face as possible:

"Yes, this really skilled guy will add that extra 10% of magic...using Reaper"

Reaper is a marvellous piece of kit. The only realistic issue to be raised is the dominance of PT in the pro studio world, where a DAW session may one day end up. These guys do not sound like they appreciate that point.

I like it!! I was delighted to see Mike Senior using Reaper, Couldnt wait to show my mate the front cover with Reaper plastered across!!
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Jfin » Tue May 25, 2010 3:47 pm

Mowens800 wrote:Don't tell them what you use in future. Let the work you have done previously speak for itself.

Thats the thing - i offered to give him a CD of my recordings....Never heard from him again!
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Jfin » Tue May 25, 2010 3:53 pm

jammy jamz wrote:
does an apple taste better because it cost 1 dollar more then the other apples?

i dont think so..but, i will always wonder..

pacem

Yep 100% Agree and guilty myself! In the hardware world definately in most cases pay more = Get more and lasts longer, Software world seems to be less and less the case these days (VST's are good example)
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby johnny h » Tue May 25, 2010 4:00 pm

Jfin wrote:Ive used Cubase for many years (SX3) but never really got on too well - After the Reaper Article in SOS (A good few issues back) I tried it - bought a licence and absolutely adore it today, everything works like a dream! Unlike Cubase!. My point is this, A couple of weeks back a band came to me to ask about my services etc. they asked if i use Pro Tools? i said no I use a little Gem of a Sequencer called Reaper -Immediately their face lost all expression! I tried to educate him with the reasons i choose Reaper over other Sequencers but to be honest i sensed he realy didnt know what i was talking about and as far as he was concerned if you dont use Cubase or Pro Tools your not really that serious about recording. This was a band looking for their first Demo CD to secure a few more gigs. I have a friend who uses Cubase and no matter how many times i try to show him how Brilliant Reaper is he wont even consider it, He's still on Cubase SX3!!)

What is it that PRo-Tools or Cubase can do that Reaper Cant

Reaper:

a. Cheap as chips (€60 for non cemmercial licence)
b. Great GUI
c. So easy to use
d. Bug free
e. Most of the features of the more expensive Sequencers (that ill ever require)
f. A helpfull Forum
g. Completely MOD firendly.


Etc etc.

Yeah but the preachy tone of reaper fans is a bit off-putting. I don't care whether other people use the sequencers I use or not, really.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Rockrooms » Tue May 25, 2010 4:07 pm

Give them two quotes, one if they want you to use pro tools and one for Reaper. If they want to know why the Reaper quote is cheaper then you can start to explain.

For me offline render speed is a life saver. Pro Tools may well do this these days, but even so, factor in the cost of a Pro Tools Rig (and by that I mean the real thing, not the LE version) and then see if they have a serious budget.

Frankly I suspect you may well have had a lucky escape. I lose track of the amount of times people say something sounds better, or worse, when I've not actually done anything to affect a mix or track.

- Joe -
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Stan » Tue May 25, 2010 4:20 pm

hi Jfin, perhaps you should not have called it a 'sequencer'.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Remeniz » Tue May 25, 2010 5:29 pm

Jfin wrote:My point is this, A couple of weeks back a band came to me to ask about my services etc. they asked if i use Pro Tools? i said no I use a little Gem of a Sequencer called Reaper -Immediately their face lost all expression!


Seriously there's no need to validate why you use Reaper to us here or anyone else that knows their DAW software including a 'band' of some kind because we know how bloody good Reaper is.

Personally I wouldn't be that bothered cause this "band" walked away due to the software you use, nothing else.

It makes the said "'band'" either wet behind the ears, arrogant or plain ignorant.

Cheers.


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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby robinv » Tue May 25, 2010 5:43 pm

Jfin wrote:A couple of weeks back a band came to me to ask about my services etc. they asked if i use Pro Tools?

You should have said "yeah of course mate, all my tools are professional, like init"
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby jammy jamz » Tue May 25, 2010 5:51 pm

haahaha some gems of replys in this thread..

but, my favorite is when i explain to people how to download REAPER.

"go to cockos.com.... etc..." thats when i like to watch thier faces..

so great.

but, i have to agree, if they're put off with what DAW you use, or dont use, i imagine, they might be a little hard to work with.. like it doesnt occur to them how much money you have invested in cables alone, let alone microphones, and etc etc etc..

some guy balked at my price of SIXTY DOLLARS for four hours the other day...to track two folk songs with just 1 accoustic gtr, and 1 or 2 voices..with a quick mix to send him on his way with....

sixty bucks is too much, he said.. i told him to go somewhere else, or learn to track it himself..

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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Martin Walker » Tue May 25, 2010 9:01 pm

Of course Reaper has such good skinning features that you could probably make it look rather like Pro Tools if needed


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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby onesecondglance » Tue May 25, 2010 9:57 pm

Jfin wrote:OK, Reaper doesnt have a Wave Editor. But in what other areas is it Stronger / weaker? Genuinley interested!


well, for a start it doesn't have a score editor for MIDI. that's a definite gap for me. and that's the thing. for you that's probably not important. for thousands others too. but for me and a fair few others, it's enough to make Cubase or Logic or something else the right choice other than REAPER. you could probably find a thousand other little things like that which are the reasons other people don't use it.

i do use REAPER and have done for about two years now. i used to follow the development quite closely, but in the end i just find i have better workflow in Cubase. i've been using that for around 14 years now so that's not surprising. nor is it REAPER's "fault".

Remeniz wrote:Seriously there's no need to validate why you use Reaper to us here or anyone else that knows their DAW software including a 'band' of some kind because we know how bloody good Reaper is.


precisely. REAPER's great. but it's not for everyone. and the fervent hype that gets spread around doesn't actually endear either the app or the REAPER community to a fair number of people.

as for the band themselves... they're probably only asking for "Pro Tools" because the trademark has almost become genericised. "Pro Tools" is digital recording to a great deal of people outside engineers. just tell them that you do have Pro Tools next time and they'd most likely be none the wiser.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby tex » Wed May 26, 2010 12:15 am

just tell them that you do have Pro Tools next time and they'd most likely be none the wiser.


Nice idea but in all probability it wouldn't work because the guy that asked for PT has probably tried PT LE and wants to tell the "engineer" how to use it...
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby MadManDan » Wed May 26, 2010 12:33 am

Not being able quite yet to afford Logic, I've been messing with Reaper, and I gotta say, I love it. Only one problem, at some point I project using it to work with Orthodox Jewish musicians, and well,,, it's called reaper,,, with a big sickle icon... LOL I actually worry about these things, though not too much.

BTW Tex your signature has me LOL. So perfect for this forum
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Combo » Wed May 26, 2010 5:44 am

Jfin wrote:OK, Reaper doesnt have a Wave Editor. But in what other areas is it Stronger? Genuinley interested!
Last time I looked it didn't have anything as powerful as the logical editor for editing midi. Which wouldn't bother me if I didn't use Cubase for writing tunes.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby onesecondglance » Wed May 26, 2010 7:45 am

tex wrote:
just tell them that you do have Pro Tools next time and they'd most likely be none the wiser.


Nice idea but in all probability it wouldn't work because the guy that asked for PT has probably tried PT LE and wants to tell the "engineer" how to use it...

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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Jfin » Wed May 26, 2010 9:51 am

robinv wrote:
Jfin wrote:A couple of weeks back a band came to me to ask about my services etc. they asked if i use Pro Tools?

You should have said "yeah of course mate, all my tools are professional, like init"

Haha.... i love it!
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Jfin » Wed May 26, 2010 9:57 am

jammy jamz wrote:some guy balked at my price of SIXTY DOLLARS for four hours the other day...to track two folk songs with just 1 accoustic gtr, and 1 or 2 voices..with a quick mix to send him on his way with....

sixty bucks is too much, he said.. i told him to go somewhere else, or learn to track it himself..


I had a similar experiance €100 for 8 hours full band recording 4 tracks. A brickies labourer wouldnt get out of bed for that kind of money - and they didnt need to spend thousands on recording gear!!

A studio close to me is offering a full days recording + guaranteed gigs in most pubs and clubs (they have most of the contracts) for €300 - how can i compete with that?
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Exalted Wombat » Wed May 26, 2010 10:46 am

Your preference for Reaper is fine. Your inability to "get on" with Cubase is a bit of a worry. Anything you can do in Reaper, you can do in Cubase. If it impresses a client, WTF, use Cubase.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Jfin » Wed May 26, 2010 12:05 pm

Exalted Wombat wrote:Your preference for Reaper is fine. Your inability to "get on" with Cubase is a bit of a worry. Anything you can do in Reaper, you can do in Cubase. If it impresses a client, WTF, use Cubase.

each time i went to use cubase my controllers would need to be re- configured for some reason and my sound card would sometimes forget it had another 14 tracks, - tried Reaper one day spent about 20 mins seting up everything, Reaper recognises both BCF2000 each time i open my template everything works as it should without the grey hair, it was love at first sight!!
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby OneWorld » Wed May 26, 2010 12:28 pm

Wish Reaper would work for me - first time out it crashed (Cubase SX1/2 and am now on 3 didn't) and for the love of Mary I simply cannot figure out the MIDI in Reaper, in theory it is there, simple enough to set up.

I select the inputs and outputs, looks pretty - but it don't work!!! Cubase does - end of! and I have tried several times to get the Reaper MIDI working as easily as it does with Cubase and my control surface, which a Tascam DM24 mixer which had a HUI emulation for Cubase, copied the file across and easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy I press the transport buttons on the DM24 and it sure enough works a treat, it doesn't in Reaper. The templates in Cubase work fine for me - I must be lucky with Cubase and unlucky with Reaper. I have given up on it and it has to be admitted, the Reaperites get quite 'precious' about it zzzzzzzzzz! Where do yo see Cubasers continually making disparaging remarks about Reaper so frequently as you do the Reapers make comparisons with Cubase - think the snobbery is on the other boot!

Each to their own isn't it, I don't and wouldn't have a studio, but have been in more than I care to think of and can never recall a single time when someone got huffy about what software was used except from passing curiosity. Almost everyone went by what their ears told them and almost every musician I came across couldn't give hoot what was being used as long as it worked and represented their music well to expectations or better still exceeding them. After all, which 'sound's better, Reaper, Cubase, Record, Logic, Prootols? I think it is more down to the operator/mixer/producer irrespective of the software.
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby jammy jamz » Wed May 26, 2010 3:15 pm

heya OneWorld..

not to be all "reaperite", , but, did you disable the MSwavetable or wahtever the generic microsoft midi device is, in the control panel, in preferences? only enable the in and outs of your device..thats what i have to manually do sometimes.. specially if i've installed a new software synth, or something like that.

because, for some reason, sometimes mine mysteriously becomes re-enabled, and that can reek havoc on my controller. and crash out my system..

but, cubase, before my HDD crash, was working splendidly. i was (actually had to, because of time constraints) converted to REAPER, when i was sent on the syncrosoft re-register circle..i couldnt put up with the "this copy is already registered" circle..

but, admittedly it was the LE version..so..yeah..

i do love my REAPER tho..
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Re: Sequencer Snobbery!!!

Postby Freuman » Wed May 26, 2010 4:11 pm

I'm afraid I am a snob in a way. I still see PTHD as a badge of honour (providing you can use it properly), showing you are serious enough to spend big bucks for those small plusses that other DAWs lack. I have used the rest and to me operationally there is one big difference:

*Cubase/Reaper/Logic are sequencers with tape machines attached.

*ProTools is a tape machine with a sequencer attached.



I would however argue with anyone who says you can't get professional results with the other DAWs and I should hope that it's known to all that "it's not what you use, it's how you use it".

(But maybe the Mrs. just says that to make me feel better...)



In summary: I am in two minds.

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