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Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

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Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby alexis » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:58 pm

Hi -

I read here http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/229223/microsoft_windows_8_wont_require_a_new_pc.html that Windows 8 will run just fine on existing computers, via the old-fashioned mouse/keyboard interfaces.

I wonder, though, if people think DAW computers will start to change to take advantage of the touch screen capability?

And I guess another question might be, do people think the DAW itself will change to take advantage of that?

Thanks for your thoughts. With Windows 8 not due out till October, and any hardware changes probably not for some time after that, and Cubase or other DAW software not right away either, it seems like it might be another year or so before a complete makeover of DAW/OS/Computer would be available.
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby Mixedup » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:32 pm

You probably won't see the major DAWs doing multi-touch for a while yet: that's a fairly major re-write to do, and there's enough to do for them playing catch up with 64-bit and multiple OS as it is. Will only really be worth it when there's a significant user base with the functionality available.

Wouldn't be surprised to see some of the App pioneers extending their product line to take advantage of multi-touch. Ditto DJ software.

But hey, what do I know? Maybe there'll be something bundled into Windows! It will certainly be interesting to see how things pan out eventually, though: the DAW, image editor, 3D packages and video NLEs are certainly prime candidates to take advantage of native multi-touch capability.
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby Thomas. » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:04 pm

alexis wrote:Hi -

I read here http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/229223/microsoft_windows_8_wont_require_a_new_pc.html that Windows 8 will run just fine on existing computers, via the old-fashioned mouse/keyboard interfaces.

Interesting. The Register quotes a Microsoft source as saying they don't think business will use it at all.

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2012/06/07/win8_enterprise_yesno/

Since the desktop is (currently) relegated to being just one app in the Metro tile interface, I can't see anyone who uses a PC to do actual work embracing it. It looks fine for people who want to see lots of tiny bits of info at once (twitter posts, facebook posts, the weather, news headlines), browse the web, and send emails. For studio work, the Metro interface is useless, and you might as well stick with 7 (or even XP).
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby The Elf » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:04 pm

Having seen the demos I'm wary of the W8 interface. It looks worryingly similar to the Xbox 360 interface, for which I personally have no affection at all. That said, once it arrives you just accept it and move on though, don't you?

I'm sure that software vendors will begin to use any new capabilities with which they are presented, but it will take time and maybe it will need a few niche companies to show the potential before the larger vendors show their hand.

As to touch-screens - it took years of growling to stop people touching my screen and leaving finger smears all over it. Now they're building it into the OS!
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby robinv » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:21 pm

Thomas. wrote:

Since the desktop is (currently) relegated to being just one app in the Metro tile interface, I can't see anyone who uses a PC to do actual work embracing it. It looks fine for people who want to see lots of tiny bits of info at once (twitter posts, facebook posts, the weather, news headlines), browse the web, and send emails. For studio work, the Metro interface is useless, and you might as well stick with 7 (or even XP).

I'm not sure that's exactly right - the desktop is not just an app that goes to sleep when you check your email. From the developers conference it was very clear that they're not messing with vanilla desktop computing - load photoshop you run photoshop, load cubase you run cubase - run them in different windows over a desktop - no problem. You can access it "like an app" but that's not what it is. The Metro side gives you access to a new way of working with lots of individual tasks which, after having a Windows phone for over a year, is elegant and a joy to use. I use my studio computer for everything and so it's actually really handy having a screen of notifications rather than having to switch between windows to check. If you want to "keep it real" with the desktop then all that's changing is that rather than double clicking an icon on your desktop to launch Cubase you're single clicking on a "live tile" (assuming you have no touch screen) and it runs Cubase over the desktop - i don't quite understand the drama.

Metro aside Windows 8 appears to have a lot less services running in the background which means more stuff will work well and at lower latency. So the important question is whether Windows 8 will either aid productivity or performance and from my point of view it's a big yes to both and that's before we even start talking about multi-touch, horizontal controller monitors or tablet wireless ipad-style control over your DAW.

It's exciting stuff
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby Pete Kaine » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:39 am

The Elf wrote:That said, once it arrives you just disable Metro and move on though, don't you?


FTFY
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby The Elf » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:03 am

Pete Kaine wrote:
The Elf wrote:That said, once it arrives you just disable Metro and move on though, don't you?

FTFY
True!
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby OneWorld » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:04 am

I read somewhere else that there won't be any radical difference behind the code between Win7 and Win8 except that it is more optimised for tablets and touch screen, so there will be no boot time/operating time speed improvements?
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:15 am

I've been playing with the demo release of Windows 8 for some time now. Something that looks and behaves very much like the Windows 7 desktop is not very far beneath the flashy "touch" interface. Graphic interfaces can generally be modified, and anyway make little difference once a productivity application is running. I've no information on what really matters - whether the underlying OS has changes that affect us and the programs we run. All publicity seems focussed on the "look and feel". Anyone got deeper information?
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby robinv » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:31 am

Exalted Wombat wrote: Anyone got deeper information?

Well i did i bit of dissecting after the developers conference and wrote it all up here:
http://www.raincomputers.co.uk/Windows-8-developer-preview-a/255.htm
If you skip down to the "Nitty Gritty" bit there's some interesting stuff on performance summarised by this image:
Image
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby Pete Kaine » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:58 pm

robinv wrote:
If you skip down to the "Nitty Gritty" bit there's some interesting stuff on performance summarised by this image:

If they can keep that up each generation we'll be running windows off a floppy again by Win 16
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby alexis » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:00 pm

https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=23579#p151388

Interesting observations in that post ^ about much higher values on DPC latency checker on Windows 8 compared with Windows 7, presumably apples to apples.
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby TAFKAT » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:18 pm

Call me a cynic, but IMO its heading to be the biggest disaster since Vista !!

This whole iGeneration / lets make a desktop O.S look like a smart phone/tablet that are based on tactile touch screens when desk tops aren't is idiotic IMO.

If you can completely disable the Metro interface on the final release then I think it may be worth a look , but I seriously doubt it is going to have any performance improvement over Windows 7 for DAW use.

Personally I am hoping Microsoft have the brains to continue selling Win7 licenses along side Win8 , as they did with XP during the Vista disaster. If not, I can see a lot of stockpiling of Win7 licences before the pin is pulled.

Allow me to place my helmet on...



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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby MonkeySpank » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:54 pm

As a Windows programmer I can assure you that it will be a LONG time before any current DAW chooses to reimplement itself using the Windows 8 Metro UI.

Microsoft's Metro interface requires a complete rewrite of the DAW GUI because the Metro libraries are completely new: they are a UI layer completely reimplemented from the ground up. If you want to offer your app as a Metro program you have to write a lot of it all over again. Given that every DAW that currently runs on Windows 7 will run on Windows 8, what is the incentive to move to the Metro interface?

Microsoft's Metro marketing push is just Microsoft doing what it does every 5-10 years or so; it pushes a new technology as if it is the saviour of programmerkind and userkind, but the hype always belies reality. Look at its MASSIVE and protracted .NET campaign: after 10+ years the only .NET application Microsoft itself ships is Visual Studio 2010, it's programming environment. Are any DAWs, even non-mainstream ones, written for .NET? I doubt it.

Touchscreen DAWs are nothing new to those of us using GarageBand etc. on iPads. If anyone delivers a full-blown touchscreen DAW in the next 5 years, it will be Logic from Apple because that is in Apple's interests. If Windows-based tablets take off then you *might* see a Cubase or Reason or Live for Metro. But let's face it: you won't. They're going to appear on iPads first and probably only.

And I'm not even broaching the subject of DAW touchscreen operation in the round. I, for one, won't be operating ANY applications with my arm outstretched for minutes at a time. iPad apps: brilliant. Desktop apps: brilliant. Who says they have to be one and the same?
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby ef37a » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:15 am

Just a tiny point.

"Serious stoodio" people have big screens? Now you need to be a mtr and then some from a 32-46incher and therfore who has long enough arms!

I doubt that I shall ever bother with 8 unless forced to. I am not that keen on W7? Ok it IS more stable than XP but then I do not get many problems with that anyway.

W7 just bloody iritates me, for instance when I ask it to save something on the Desktop why is it never bloody there? WHY can't it minimize webstuff to the taskbar so I can read what it is? THERE and not have to open yet another box?

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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby Pete Kaine » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:54 am

TAFKAT wrote:C
Personally I am hoping Microsoft have the brains to continue selling Win7 licenses along side Win8 , as they did with XP during the Vista disaster. If not, I can see a lot of stockpiling of Win7 licences before the pin is pulled.

Allow me to place my helmet on...


It's an even number release of windows. Let me look at the last couple of evens:

Windows 6 - Vista

Windows 4 - M.E.

You'll have to fight me for that stock pile Vin...

ef37a wrote:
W7 just bloody iritates me, for instance when I ask it to save something on the Desktop why is it never bloody there?

My desktop would dictate that not everyone has that issue! Donno what's going on there, but it's not a standard issue.

ef37a wrote:
WHY can't it minimize webstuff to the taskbar so I can read what it is? THERE and not have to open yet another box?

Ehh? Not quite sure I follow that...
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby robinv » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:46 pm

This just blows my mind:

MonkeySpank wrote:
And I'm not even broaching the subject of DAW touchscreen operation in the round. I, for one, won't be operating ANY applications with my arm outstretched for minutes at a time. iPad apps: brilliant. Desktop apps: brilliant. Who says they have to be one and the same?

And this:

ef37a wrote:
"Serious stoodio" people have big screens? Now you need to be a mtr and then some from a 32-46incher and therfore who has long enough arms!

Why oh why are we stuck with the Tom Cruise Minority Report concept of touch screen technology? I hear this "it'll make my arms ache" comment all the time and i may be being really thick but why would anyone put a touch screen vertically out of reach? You'd put it in front of you, on the desktop, at an ergonomic angle. Your main screen would remain your main screen in it's usual place doing its usual thing, you'd use another screen with touch controls to do all the stuff you need. So cubase would open with your project on the main screen and the mixer on the touch screen. The ipad already has an app that allows you to use the Metro interface controlling your Windows 8 install - http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/id514878988?affId=1774634
You could easily have a tablet running with your desktop doing the touch side of things - even simpler you could use a 10" dumb touch screen connected and have it sit under your screen or next to your mouse?

Come on, be a bit creative, just because we're sensitive musicians we don't have to be miserable all the time
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:01 pm

Where i can see the touch screen being employed is as a virtual mixing desk, have 2 displays, one with the usual display and the other laid flat with a mixing desk displayed? Not as tactile as a proper desk but convenient for layout and access?
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby robinv » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:06 pm

OneWorld wrote:Where i can see the touch screen being employed is as a virtual mixing desk, have 2 displays, one with the usual display and the other laid flat with a mixing desk displayed? Not as tactile as a proper desk but convenient for layout and access?

Exactly! Hoorah! To OneWorld you will listen, yes?
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby TAFKAT » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:15 pm

robinv wrote:....You could easily have a tablet running with your desktop doing the touch side of things - even simpler you could use a 10" dumb touch screen connected and have it sit under your screen or next to your mouse?

Come on, be a bit creative, just because we're sensitive musicians we don't have to be miserable all the time

I don't think anyone here has said anything about Metro not being good for a smaller tactile surfaced interface like a tablet , the views expressed are about it being enforced as a main UI for the primary DAW. So because some of us have some reservation about Metro it means we are being miserable, or is it more so that we are being realistic ?

I am happy that you are sooo enthusiastic, but forgive me if I maintain my reservation until qualified and quantified comparative performance data is at least in. From memory you also showed an overly extended level of enthusiasm for Vista , how did that turn out for ya.. ?

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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby TAFKAT » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:24 pm


O.K,

Now we are talking....., and no Metro required.



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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby robinv » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:07 pm

TAFKAT wrote:

O.K,

Now we are talking....., and no Metro required.



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oh god, now we're back to achy arms again!
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby Pete Kaine » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:12 pm

Better than wrist strain mind.
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:14 pm

Pete Kaine wrote:http://www.leapmotion.com/

</thread>

Blimey - that seems just the job!
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby robinv » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:21 pm

TAFKAT wrote:
robinv wrote:

I don't think anyone here has said anything about Metro not being good for a smaller tactile surfaced interface like a tablet , the views expressed are about it being enforced as a main UI for the primary DAW. So because some of us have some reservation about Metro it means we are being miserable, or is it more so that we are being realistic ?

No, it's just your reservations are largely unfounded - nothing is being forced on you. There's no difference between double clicking an icon on your desktop and tapping a live tile in terms of productivity - the Metro acts a a program launcher, like the start menu or desktop - it means you no harm. Whereas if you use your computer for more than one application then Metro has this marvellous way of presenting information about multiple apps that you might or might not want to view. It has nothing to do with running a DAW so please forgive me if i can't grasp the reservations. If you want to run a desktop program then Metro is irrelevant - now if you want to have reservations about performance in general then that's a lot more interesting (to me at least).

TAFKAT wrote:
I am happy that you are sooo enthusiastic, but forgive me if I maintain my reservation until qualified and quantified comparative performance data is at least in.
You're forgiven for your lack of vision.
TAFKAT wrote:
From memory you also showed an overly extended level of enthusiasm for Vista , how did that turn out for ya.. ?

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Really well funnily enough - Vista 64 was a fabulous OS once 64 software started creeping in - i wrote an album on it
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby Folderol » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:10 pm

Pete Kaine wrote:http://www.leapmotion.com/

</thread>
First time I've seen a touch free device that actually looks like it can do the job - and at a very nice price point. They'll need to get that Linux support sorted though before I'll be able to use it.
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:57 pm

And going back to the original question? Will Win8 mean that DAWs change drastically, well, did they ever? eg Win3.1 => 95 => 98 => Millenium => XP/2000 => Vista => Win7

I suppose the Win2000/XP saw the most radical change though just as much due to hardware and software working in together in a more stable manner and with the introduction of seamless task switching. On the whole the changes are evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

What exactly is a 'drastic change' I wonder what is expected by that?
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby alexis » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:06 pm

Hi OneWorld!

OP here:

"Drastic" - wondering about "change significant enough that one would best hold off on electively buying a pre-built music computer until hardware (human interfaces, drivers for audio interfaces, etc.) and software (DAW, plug-ins, etc.) have 'caught up'".

Seems like the consensus of the wise ones is that evolution rather than revo-lution is the more likely course, with no problem purchasing whatever whenever.

Or did I just read into these posts what I wanted to?

Thanks!
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Re: Will DAW computers change drastically when Windows 8 is released?

Postby TAFKAT » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:16 pm

robinv wrote:

No, it's just your reservations are largely unfounded - nothing is being forced on you....

If you want to run a desktop program then Metro is irrelevant - now if you want to have reservations about performance in general then that's a lot more interesting (to me at least).


Unfounded eh !

In the previous Consumer preview , the option to disable Metro was removed , that seems to indicate that Metro is being imposed on us !

Performance wise is my only focus , if Win8 under bonnet does not deliver anything over Win7 , then its a wash , Metro or no Metro !

If anything your enthusiasm that Win8 will be some major paradigm shift for how we will be interacting in our DAW environments is largely unfounded , and that anyone who isn't embracing your vision is miserable or stuck in a rut in some way !

You second comment is correct, if you want to run a desktop application , in this case a DAW, Metro is irrelevant , so in that respect, so is Win8 !

Let me just check where we are again, hmmmmmmm, O.K, lets move on.

You're forgiven for your lack of vision.


LOL, and you are forgiven for sounding like a deer eyed M.S Fanboi again... LOL

Really well funnily enough - Vista 64 was a fabulous OS once 64 software started creeping in - i wrote an album on it


Vista was nothing more than a polished turd on its inception that was knocked into reasonable shape by SP2 , XP x64 totally destroyed it as a 64 bit DAW O.S. I wrote albums on Windows 98, whats your point ?



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