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Win8 RIP?

Postby OneWorld » Tue May 07, 2013 3:51 pm

Well not quite that, but according to an economist on the BBC News this morning, Win8 has been a calamity and is going to cost Microsoft dearly, the take up has been a fraction of what they expected.

Is it really that bad, ala Willenium and Vista?

Why didn't they just do Win7 and a bit, just to tidy it up a bit, though I suppose the Service packs do that, but then agai they make no money from service packs - oops I might have encouraged them to add a revenue stream there!
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby Chris of Arabia » Tue May 07, 2013 8:51 pm

I've got it on my desktop based DAW with no touch screen and don't find it a big problem at all. It took a little getting used to, but it's stable and seems to behave itself quite nicely. I finally sorted my one remaining legacy driver issue today, so all is good on that front. The only mistake they made in my view was not making the 'classic' Start button look a switchable option. If they do that with a Service Pack and ensure that's built into future disk pressings, they could recover some ground - they need to do that quickly though, and very publically, no matter how much humble pie that involves eating.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby BJG145 » Tue May 07, 2013 9:21 pm

I'd be delighted to hear it. I only looked at it for 5 minutes and it felt like a rash.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby Scramble » Tue May 07, 2013 9:22 pm

The big issue, I think, wasn't so much the different interface, although that wouldn't have helped. It's more that people don't want to be changing OS that often. A lot of people have been on XP for 8-10 years, and have only moved to W7 recently. Why do they want to move again so soon? They want another 10 years on W7 if possible.

It's not like W8 is offering some new and amazing that most desktop users really want. Touchscreens on desktops might become a big thing in a few years, but they aren't right now for most people.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby BJG145 » Tue May 07, 2013 9:25 pm

Scramble wrote:They want another 10 years on W7 if possible.

The people I deal with daily would like another 10 years on XP if possible.

To be honest, I don't blame them. The only ones that benefit from most updates are the manufacturers.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby desmond » Tue May 07, 2013 10:01 pm

My dad bought a new laptop, came with Windows 8.

I set it up for him. The whole experience was horrible, it's a messy train wreck of half implemented non-consistent ideas and it confuses the heck out of him every day. Seems to have been designed to be something new and different without being new and different - therefore is the worst of both.

I actually like parts of the Metro (oops, er, the new Win8 modern user interface bits) but it's such a half arsed implementation it's awful. They don't seem to know what to do with Windows, but this really is imo the worst version of Windows since Windows ME - shame, since Windows 7 was actually fairly good (as far as Windows goes).
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby Moroccomoose » Tue May 07, 2013 10:18 pm

I'm a happy win8 user. I got my copy via the free beta version so worked out to be a really cheap way to get 64 bit capability where I'd previously had an OEM install of XP 32bit. I am running Cubase 4.5AI and reaper with few problems. Though I do get the occasional BSOD with my delta 1010 driver. But this is a driver issue, not an OS issue. I downloaded a start button, so no worries on that score and have the desktop as the default mode. Flipping between tiled apps and desktop is easy. I never really understood the interface complaints to be honest
. As I type from my WP8 phone, I also like how well they sync.
So, M-Audio, (or who ever you are these days)pull yer finger out and get those drivers written!

Having said all that, I concede that for portable systems, apple ipads and iphone win with music creation apps. As I understand, the metro/WP8 modes don't even have the necessary vocabulary for low latency audio, let alone any apps... Hopefully this will change.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby tea for two » Wed May 08, 2013 11:16 am

Too bloated company with departments not talking to each other.
Sensible solutions drowned out by chain of command, finance, marketing officers, stockholders.

I am pretty sure an idea was put forward along the lines of
we want a touch OS for tablets and touchscreens that allows apps to be installed without alienating existing user base whilst keeping classic windows look and feel.

A solution may have been proposed : continue X86 OS, with dual kernel, one kernel running classic windows, the other kernel metro ... metro everything launches as apps and allows apps as well as non apps to be installed. User has choice which to use.

Hardware allow tablet manufactures to make their own specification ... just as google did.

Someone probably said we are a software company, its our core strength, lets stick to it.
...

MS is not a product company, never have been. MS tried to do an Apple without the supporting columns.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Wed May 08, 2013 11:52 am

desmond wrote:...this really is imo the worst version of Windows since Windows ME - shame, since Windows 7 was actually fairly good (as far as Windows goes).

I've actually spent a bit of time in Windows 8 over the last week, so can develop a proper opinion!

It doesn't seem to be a "bad" Windows - not like Vista was. It's a good one, with a rather silly top-level interface bolted on. It can dumb you down if you let it. For instance, I expect many of us use Skype, and its screen-sharing feature. Skype is offered in Windows 8, as a pre-installed "app". But it's the cut-down smartphone version without screen-sharing. I HOPE you can also download the full one?
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby Pete Kaine » Wed May 08, 2013 12:35 pm

Chris of Arabia wrote:The only mistake they made in my view was not making the 'classic' Start button look a switchable option.

http://www.classicshell.net/
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby Folderol » Wed May 08, 2013 12:53 pm

I don't have a lot of exposure to Windows (fortunately), but at work they're upgrading all the office machines, and the most common complaint I'm hearing is "Why?"

People aren't complaining about the underlying OS - they have no interest in it - but about all the dramatic changes in the UI that appear to add no positive value to their work. There's is a really strong sense of 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Indeed, it seems to be so tablet oriented it actually gets in the way of productivity even more.

Unfortunately, this seem to be the direction almost all OSs are going
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby Moroccomoose » Wed May 08, 2013 1:42 pm

I have been using the BETA version since it came out last year and bought the released version when it was still in its introductory cheap phase.

I think underneath the Metro UI, they didn't break it. Its just the same old desktop minus the start button but minus the hang-ups and crashes too (In my own experience).

I tend to have most frequently used programs 'pinned' to the task bar, as I did in XP days so only need the start menu for control panel type stuff or infrequently used programs so I don't see the big workflow issues we read about. I don't find it obstructive to use the metro start screen to launch programs from. Its not really any different from the start menu, a simple mouse gesture and you are there, Metro apps open in metro and desktop programs open in desktop. Perfect!

Classicshell is one of a dozen available 'start button replicas' available which also works great for me. But from the sound of things, these replicas will soon be made redundant by the a re-instated MS original.

With the exception of my Delta 1010 drivers (Which had a bit of a mischievous streak in them on my XP set up any way) I have not had a more stable Windows since 3.11!

When the mood takes me, I quite like using the tiled apps... I quite like the 'true full screen' nature of them. Great for reading SOS ;-) or using ebay. They are much less cluttered.

I think they just need to do make 3 simple fixes to help the perception of broken windows:

1 Replace the start button - obviously, everyone is screaming out for it!!
2 At the point of install or profile setup, allow the user to chose a clear touch screen or desktop bias and have it set up accordingly.
3 Have it default to use the relevant program for the mode you are working in - eg if in desktop mode and you open a PDF or click a web link, it selects the relevant desktop program rather than the metro app and vice versa if in Metro mode.

This makes me sound like some kind of MS-o-phile, I'm really not, I just simply don't see the bad in WIN 8 that others do. All of the complaints can easily be tweaked out.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Wed May 08, 2013 2:21 pm

Moroccomoose wrote:Replace the start button - obviously, everyone is screaming out for it!!

It's there, really, in the All Apps view. You can configure it yourself, with favourites at the beginning. All it lacks is a condensed List view and Collapse Folders. Might one hope for SP1....?
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby UltimateOutsider » Wed May 08, 2013 4:59 pm

To me the weirdest thing about Windows 8 is that it managed to annoy both novices and power users at the same time. In the past Microsoft frequently made changes to their OSes and apps to make life easier for first-time users- they figured the power users would be able to adapt soon enough. But across their product line they've made several things absolutely confounding to both audiences. (Like the notorious "ribbons" in Office 2007.)

Anyway, with ClassicShell, Windows 8 isn't too bad (assuming your interface and other drivers work well on it), although it still manages to surprise me. If you don't explicitly close a Metro app it continues running in the background and can unexpectedly take over your desktop if something inside the app updates (like a new story in a news feed, for example)- and this actually violates one of Microsoft's own design guidelines which they had been pushing for years: No application should ever steal focus from another without the other app's explicit permission. Just really weird design decisions.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby The Elf » Wed May 08, 2013 6:43 pm

UltimateOutsider wrote:But across their product line they've made several things absolutely confounding to both audiences. (Like the notorious "ribbons" in Office 2007.)
I absolutely loathe the Office 2007 ribbons. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the previous menu and toolbars, so why MS decided it has to ruin it is completely beyond me. The lady elf had to phone me from work to find out where 'Print' and 'Save as...' were hidden. Ridiculous.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby grabme » Wed May 08, 2013 7:25 pm

Where it goes wrong is flipping between Desktop and Tiles mutes the sound which is highly frustrating. I thought I wouldn't miss the start button but it needs to return as it feels empty without it.
The apps are mainly rubbish, nothing of any particular interest like Android which has some genuinely useful tools.
Strong points are the options to send to multiple monitors and the file transfer options which let you pause copied files/folders. Also the desktop looks nicer than Win7 and the Wallpaper is way better.
Tried it for a few months then went back to Win 7. What would get me back to Win8 is the option to disable tiles, the start button and more customisation options on the desktop.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby dubbmann » Wed May 08, 2013 7:49 pm

i never worked for MS but have for many big IT vendors (IBM, cisco, 3Com) and know how these folks think. there is an amazing amount of cluelessness wrt basic marketing concepts that a consumer product company like Lever Bros or P&G know in their sleep. when i saw the metro i/f for the first time i told everyone i knew who was thinking of getting a computer to buy one w/ w7 before it was too late. i've had to support my mum and bro on a win8 machine long distance and it is a fricking nightmare.

what is astounding to me re: the omission o/t start button/convertional desktop view is that the first question every help desk will ask a punter (after the "is the machine powered on?" q is out of the way) is "go to the start button and ....". five minutes of focus-group testing would have told MS that, and i'm sure they did this, but at the end of the day they thought "f*&K 'em", we're MS and they'll do what we tell them even if they don't like it. it's the Zune all over again.

(not) cheers,

d
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby OneWorld » Wed May 08, 2013 8:12 pm

The Elf wrote:
UltimateOutsider wrote:But across their product line they've made several things absolutely confounding to both audiences. (Like the notorious "ribbons" in Office 2007.)
I absolutely loathe the Office 2007 ribbons. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the previous menu and toolbars, so why MS decided it has to ruin it is completely beyond me. The lady elf had to phone me from work to find out where 'Print' and 'Save as...' were hidden. Ridiculous.

You're not on your own. I used ot work with an IT company and I used to do some training after we did an install - and the overall loathing of the 'Magic Button' and the 'Ribbon' was...."What the Hell is the Point Behind all This?" and the most frequent support calls were of course, "What's happened to?", "Where is", "Can I have the old menus back" and "What exactly does the Ribbon do that the Menus couldn't do" it was so exasperating as we were installing new machines that came with 2007 installed - it was like pulling teeth trying to get people to accept it.

Most people working with applications do not want to become an 'expert' in using the appplication, they want to get on with their work, a book-keeper wants to be a book-keeper, a P.A wants to write letters and report etc

Of course there has to be change, and my post was not so much a rant about Win8, how could I, I have never used it, but was interested when I heard this report about Win8 on the radio and the parallels drawn between it and Millenium/Vista - history repeating itself?

I do a bit of database development from time to time, until music pays and that's not going to happen soon if at all lol

But the customer still uses Access 2003, so I had to roll out a copy I have and work in that - it flew! and yes later versions of Office that have lots of diddlybobbles that help improve the 'Office Experience' but I nodded off while it was pulling itself together
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby edpdx » Thu May 09, 2013 1:11 am


I just bought a new Acer laptop i3, Win8, 6gb ram, 500gb 5400 rpm and Cakewalk's X2 on it. I could be happier! This new Windows version is more stable than any other before. No complains here!

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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby 4TrackMadman » Thu May 09, 2013 4:01 am

Extremely underdeveloped UI and big chunky pieces of apps that take loads of screen space. I personally can't stand it altough with a few tweaks got it to look as closely as Win 7 as possible. There are still a few apps that seems to break the IU and make it look like a tablet again but slowly I am getting it to look like Win 7. Surprisingly it runs slower on a more powerful machine than my Win 7.

As a big extra surprise - Micro$oft is also screwing things up on the Office front. Now they only allow one license per computer so say goodbye to you second license that you can install on your laptop. One license per registered user and they'd be pushing everyone in the "cloud" pretty soon where Office becomes a web app akin to Dropbox where it syncs all your PCs, and of course M$ has access to all your data.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby BJG145 » Thu May 09, 2013 7:38 am

The Elf wrote:But across their product line they've made several things absolutely confounding to both audiences. (Like the notorious "ribbons" in Office 2007.)

Yeah, I don't know who came up with this "Ribbon" idea. It's turned the menu system into a total mess, a jumble of icons of different sizes. I resorted to installing the Ubit Office 2003 toolbar in Office 2010 because I couldn't find anything.

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/19323/bring-office-2003-menus-back-to-2010-with-ubitmenu/
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby The Elf » Thu May 09, 2013 8:01 am

BJG145 wrote:
The Elf wrote:But across their product line they've made several things absolutely confounding to both audiences. (Like the notorious "ribbons" in Office 2007.)

Yeah, I don't know who came up with this "Ribbon" idea. It's turned the menu system into a total mess, a jumble of icons of different sizes. I resorted to installing the Ubit Office 2003 toolbar in Office 2010 because I couldn't find anything.

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/19323/bring-office-2003-menus...

Amazing! Man, you've made my day!

I would never have even thought to look for anything like this - just shows ya...

Many thanks.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby OneWorld » Thu May 09, 2013 9:07 am

4TrackMadman wrote:Extremely underdeveloped UI and big chunky pieces of apps that take loads of screen space. I personally can't stand it altough with a few tweaks got it to look as closely as Win 7 as possible. There are still a few apps that seems to break the IU and make it look like a tablet again but slowly I am getting it to look like Win 7. Surprisingly it runs slower on a more powerful machine than my Win 7.

As a big extra surprise - Micro$oft is also screwing things up on the Office front. Now they only allow one license per computer so say goodbye to you second license that you can install on your laptop. One license per registered user and they'd be pushing everyone in the "cloud" pretty soon where Office becomes a web app akin to Dropbox where it syncs all your PCs, and of course M$ has access to all your data.


It gets worse with the latest versions of Office. Not only are you limted to one installation, but if your computer goes belly up and you need a replacement - you have to buy Office all over again!

I do a few hours a week lecturing at a university and one of the reasons I hold onto that job is so I can get educational discounts with the 'volume licensing' That being said, I do know some nefarious individuals who are selling copies of these softwares with the volume license on Gumtree etc I am sure Microsoft is aware of this and addressing the issue?

I also know of another seedy individual who works for a charity who is doing the same with volume licenses sold to the charity he works for!!! and yet within that community he is perceived as a paragon of virtue, a pillar of the community - I don't think they know about his Gumtree activities! He'll get caught though, they always do, only a matter of time.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby OneWorld » Thu May 09, 2013 9:12 am

BJG145 wrote:
The Elf wrote:But across their product line they've made several things absolutely confounding to both audiences. (Like the notorious "ribbons" in Office 2007.)
Yeah, I don't know who came up with this "Ribbon" idea. It's turned the menu system into a total mess, a jumble of icons of different sizes. I resorted to installing the Ubit Office 2003 toolbar in Office 2010 because I couldn't find anything.

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/19323/bring-office-2003-menus...

Rolling back the years! That really is a useful bit of software, I feel such a Luddite but so what - I know what I like and am installing it myself right now. Thanks for the link
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Thu May 09, 2013 9:16 am

edpdx wrote:
I just bought a new Acer laptop i3, Win8, 6gb ram, 500gb 5400 rpm and Cakewalk's X2 on it. I could be happier! This new Windows version is more stable than any other before. No complains here!

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Did you have stability issues with Windows 7?
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Thu May 09, 2013 9:21 am

OneWorld wrote:You're not on your own. I used ot work with an IT company and I used to do some training after we did an install - and the overall loathing of the 'Magic Button' and the 'Ribbon' was...."What the Hell is the Point Behind all This?" and the most frequent support calls were of course, "What's happened to?", "Where is", "Can I have the old menus back" and "What exactly does the Ribbon do that the Menus couldn't do" it was so exasperating as we were installing new machines that came with 2007 installed - it was like pulling teeth trying to get people to accept it.

Most people working with applications do not want to become an 'expert' in using the appplication, they want to get on with their work, a book-keeper wants to be a book-keeper, a P.A wants to write letters and report etc

The current version of the score publisher Sibelius also suffers from a Ribbon. The justification seemed to be that it made life easier for newbies and casual users - a sort of permanent on-screen manual.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby James Perrett » Thu May 09, 2013 9:33 am

OneWorld wrote:
I do a few hours a week lecturing at a university and one of the reasons I hold onto that job is so I can get educational discounts with the 'volume licensing' That being said, I do know some nefarious individuals who are selling copies of these softwares with the volume license on Gumtree etc I am sure Microsoft is aware of this and addressing the issue?

I have a similar deal - but our copies are tied to a license server which the software needs to access every few weeks in order to stay working. So anyone selling the software would need to be able to set up their customers with a university user ID in order to log in to the server.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby OneWorld » Thu May 09, 2013 12:33 pm

James Perrett wrote:
OneWorld wrote:
I do a few hours a week lecturing at a university and one of the reasons I hold onto that job is so I can get educational discounts with the 'volume licensing' That being said, I do know some nefarious individuals who are selling copies of these softwares with the volume license on Gumtree etc I am sure Microsoft is aware of this and addressing the issue?

I have a similar deal - but our copies are tied to a license server which the software needs to access every few weeks in order to stay working. So anyone selling the software would need to be able to set up their customers with a university user ID in order to log in to the server.

Actually the lecturers that have a laptop given to them by the uni seem to have a similar setup and the last educational copy of Office I bought was 2010 (£35!!!! the full trip)so I feel those versions will be a thing of the past. I teach database programming so how the students will go on buying a copy of Office with Access included goodness knows. I did wean the department away from Access to MySQL, but last year they went back to Access to comply with the norms! as if.

But those decisions are not taken by academics but by the 'Student Experience' wallers, who go into raptures of self congratulation and do leaps and whoops if they get flying bullet points in Powerpoint! Don't get me started on that one lol

I believe students will stillbe able to buy a release of Office where it runs out after the course finishes, by which time they will have been weaned away from Office alternatives.
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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby edpdx » Thu May 09, 2013 3:07 pm

Actually I had been using Vista and it was ok! But I definitely have seen huge improvement in stability with the drivers and less hisses and pops in my audio. Let alone the fact that Win8 loads Cakewalk super fast.

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Re: Win8 RIP?

Postby johnny h » Thu May 09, 2013 3:53 pm

Like I said in a previous thread, Microsoft's strategy is seriously unfocussed. Its trying desperately to copy things it fails to understand. Windows 8 offers nothing to professionals and, from the sales figures, nothing to consumers either.

They've sacked Sinofsky, the man behind the terrible split personality Metro/class interface so perhaps things will improve.
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