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The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

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The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Exalted Wombat » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:00 pm

...because it's already there.

A Windows 8 laptop arrived here today. The first I've actually owned, rather than hastily set up for someone else.

It is trivially easy to tell it to boot to the Desktop. The Metro stuff can be treated as nothing more than a big Sidebar, doubling as a bloated Start Menu. Some of the apps are fun.

Don't use the app version of Skype, it lacks screen sharing. However, the desktop version can be freely installed. There's also something odd about the app version of Internet Explorer, but it works fine from the Desktop.

So, basically, most of the shouting has been about nothing.
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You don't have to write songs. The world doesn't want you to write songs. It would probably prefer it if you didn't. So write songs if you want to. Otherwise, dont. Go fishing instead.


Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Moroccomoose » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Yip, I had no problems with win8 since the beta before Christmas... Even if you really must have the ye olde start button, download one of a dozen freeware versions that emulate it.

Don't like metro?..... Fine, don't use it!

I'm with you EW, its all been a storm in a teacup...just with better performance!
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby johnny h » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:28 pm

Moroccomoose wrote:Yip, I had no problems with win8 since the beta before Christmas... Even if you really must have the ye olde start button, download one of a dozen freeware versions that emulate it.

Don't like metro?..... Fine, don't use it!

I'm with you EW, its all been a storm in a teacup...just with better performance!
Yeah, apart from with firewire, or certain USB sound cards... then its not so great.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Moroccomoose » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:23 am

I don't have any fire wire gear. But my Yamaha MW10c USB mixer worked just fine, no problems there. My Delta PCI cards worked perfectly with the win 7 driver too.

I guess I've been lucky with the gear I have so far as compatibility.

But I think that is a different topic to 'metro or not to metro' and I agree with the OP, you could take or leave the metro from the beginning... For the main, I never used it, I just set up for desktop use.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby robinv » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:28 am

Exalted Wombat wrote: There's also something odd about the app version of Internet Explorer, but it works fine from the Desktop.

Yeah, i thought that until i got a touchscreen and then suddenly the app version of IE became awesome because you could manipulate it all over the place and i discovered where the tabs had gone
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Scramble » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:31 am

Is it Groundhog Day?
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Richie Royale » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:33 am

Scramble wrote:Is it Groundhog Day?

Wombat Day.

http://www.wombania.com/wombat-day.htm Actually that is in October.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Exalted Wombat » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:08 am

johnny h wrote:
Moroccomoose wrote:Yip, I had no problems with win8 since the beta before Christmas... Even if you really must have the ye olde start button, download one of a dozen freeware versions that emulate it.

Don't like metro?..... Fine, don't use it!

I'm with you EW, its all been a storm in a teacup...just with better performance!
Yeah, apart from with firewire, or certain USB sound cards... then its not so great.

And now we're discussing the stuff that matters, not the Metro interface. Good!
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby johnny h » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:30 am

robinv wrote:
Exalted Wombat wrote: There's also something odd about the app version of Internet Explorer, but it works fine from the Desktop.

Yeah, i thought that until i got a touchscreen and then suddenly the app version of IE became awesome because you could manipulate it all over the place and i discovered where the tabs had gone

Strange, I'm sure I read "IE" and "awesome" in the same sentence. How can a browser be "awesome" anyway? I thought this was a music forum. Do you any of you guys feel as passionate about music as you do Microsoft browser tabs?
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby HollowAxis » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:48 am

I've had no problems on Windows 8.
Using it at home on an ASUS laptop. Rock solid and noticeably faster than my Win 7 install was.
USB interface there, no driver issues at all.

Just last week my band moved into a new practice space that happens to have a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 interface that we can use (Firewire).

I cobbled together a PC from old spare parts and installed Windows 8 pro 64bit on that.
Also working flawlessly, now we can record our practices.
The hardware on this machine is 2007 era and it all works just fine, and quickly too.

I don't understand the complaints about Windows 8 in general, and I haven't had a single problem using it for Audio work.
Storm in a teacup stuff indeed.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby feline1 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:32 am

Exalted Wombat wrote:
There's also something odd about the app version of Internet Explorer, but it works fine from the Desktop.

The 'app' version is touch-enabled, so you get between tabs by swiping in from the top or bottom of the screen. Navigation without a mouse and keyboard is a breeze.

If you are instead browsing with a mouse and keyboard, use the desktop version. Simles.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby feline1 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:01 pm

If I might be so bold as to give Microsoft advice:

I would add a dialog to the Windows 8 installation, which gives radio button choices for:
- is this a desktop PC?
- is this a tablet or touch-sensitive PC?

...depending on your answer, it would then default to booting either to desktop or to the Metro start screen.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby HollowAxis » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:52 pm

feline1 wrote:If I might be so bold as to give Microsoft advice:

I would add a dialog to the Windows 8 installation, which gives radio button choices for:
- is this a desktop PC?
- is this a tablet or touch-sensitive PC?

...depending on your answer, it would then default to booting either to desktop or to the Metro start screen.

They really should have thought of this. So simple.
Would have solved everything
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Bern Leckie » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:58 pm

I can understand Microsoft's keenness to promote the newer interface because they understand something from their own history as well as iOS's current cut through: it's third party developers, and their incentive to develop the best apps for lots of users, which make the platform successful. Routing everyone through the modern interface was definitely a better marketing/strategy idea than it was a good design decision for the bulk of current users, though.

I've been putting off and sort of dreading a shift to Windows 8, but it's reassuring to know it's not all that bad.

They could definitely make the modern interface better for non-touch users, though, for example by making right-click options accessible at the point of clicking (as they are on the desktop, so you minimise necessary movement) rather than at the edge of the screen (which only makes sense for tablets, where it makes sense to present a touchable option in a consistent place) Any news on stuff like this in 8.1?
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Scramble » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:15 am

Here's a story about the latest Microsoft restructure... although it says it's written by reporters from Associated Press and Reuters, clearly it has really been written by Johnny H.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby robinv » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:21 pm

Scramble wrote:Here's a story about the latest Microsoft restructure... although it says it's written by reporters from Associated Press and Reuters, clearly it has really been written by Johnny H.

I thought that was almost quite reserved for the Daily "we're doomed!" Mail.
I'm still not convinced by the whole death of the PC thing but rather that it's falling to a more sustainable level. Before the iPad households were starting to have two or three PC's - a family one, the kids one, the one the mum or dad actually works on - whereas now tablets can do most of that. But you can't really work on one. You still might need to write letters, to print stuff, to create and produce stuff beyond what a touch interface can manage - so it'll end up with every household having just one PC and a bunch of other handheld devices. Last year everyone would ask me (your local computery person) which tablet they should get, now they're looking to replace their ageing PC or laptop because they still need to do stuff tablets can't. So i think PC demand will bump back up again but perhaps never to what it once was.

If i was Microsoft here's what i'd do:
1. Market Windows 8 showing what you can do in both Metro and desktop
2. Concentrate on showing how well a PC with Win8, a tablet with Win8 and Win 8 Phone work together - sell it as a set of gear all connected and flowing.
3. Ditch the desktop on WinRT, call it something else and keep the Surface cheap.
4. Stop the Office subscription model and just sell it as a product like before, or an app from the store, cheaply, 3 licenses or really cheap for one.
5. Kill off Xbox Gold
6. Reinstate the cheap win8 upgrade
7. Roll out Win8.1 as soon as humanly possible

Above all else they need to appear generous and useful - they have the gear but they seem to have lost their way in marketing and customer connection.

my 2 cents anyway
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby feline1 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:06 pm

Having a bunch of Windows 8 desktop/mobile devices in your house does work nicely,
although mine is currently scuppered a bit because of bloody Talk Talk (one of Britain's many useless ISPs, for our overseads readers) -
the router the provide doesn't support IPv6, which Windows 8's "Homegroup" feature needs to work.
And not to let Microsoft off the hook, their error messages and "troubleshooter" are completely useless at diagnosing this.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby johnny h » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Scramble wrote:Here's a story about the latest Microsoft restructure... although it says it's written by reporters from Associated Press and Reuters, clearly it has really been written by Johnny H.
Who says I don't work for them?
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby feline1 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:57 am

johnny h wrote:
Scramble wrote:Here's a story about the latest Microsoft restructure... although it says it's written by reporters from Associated Press and Reuters, clearly it has really been written by Johnny H.
Who says I don't work for them?

If you were a Daily Mail shill, that would indeed explain a lot...
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Andi » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:53 pm

johnny h wrote:
Moroccomoose wrote:Yip, I had no problems with win8 since the beta before Christmas... Even if you really must have the ye olde start button, download one of a dozen freeware versions that emulate it.

Don't like metro?..... Fine, don't use it!

I'm with you EW, its all been a storm in a teacup...just with better performance!
Yeah, apart from with firewire, or certain USB sound cards... then its not so great.

FW works fine here, the legacy driver issue takes minutes fo fix if you still need to. However hard you try to make it otherwise, Win 8 works well and has some improvements over W7, and the resolutions to most of the crippling problems that some folks are determined to have take less time to resolve than to type about, especially when you do it repeatedly!
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby johnny h » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:03 pm

Andi wrote:
johnny h wrote:
Moroccomoose wrote:Yip, I had no problems with win8 since the beta before Christmas... Even if you really must have the ye olde start button, download one of a dozen freeware versions that emulate it.

Don't like metro?..... Fine, don't use it!

I'm with you EW, its all been a storm in a teacup...just with better performance!
Yeah, apart from with firewire, or certain USB sound cards... then its not so great.

FW works fine here, the legacy driver issue takes minutes fo fix if you still need to. However hard you try to make it otherwise, Win 8 works well and has some improvements over W7, and the resolutions to most of the crippling problems that some folks are determined to have take less time to resolve than to type about, especially when you do it repeatedly!
Yeah, that's not what Pete says, and its his job to test out these things.

It certainly isn't mine.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Andi » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:42 pm

Which bit?
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby johnny h » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:26 pm

Andi wrote:Which bit?

The bit about firewire and USB soundcards not working properly. Quite important for audio work, really.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby johnny h » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:26 pm

Andi wrote:Which bit?

The bit about firewire and USB soundcards not working properly. Quite important for audio work, really.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby robinv » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:40 pm

johnny h wrote:
Andi wrote:Which bit?

The bit about firewire and USB soundcards not working properly. Quite important for audio work, really.

And yet all the new Scan Audio Laptops are Windows 8 only..... curious
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Andi » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:40 pm

johnny h wrote:
Andi wrote:Which bit?

The bit about firewire and USB soundcards not working properly. Quite important for audio work, really.

You know, I had figured that the audio interface thing might be a bit important for audio work, but I have a FF400 and I have a half dozen or so review USB interfaces here, and they all work under W8 on several machines. Like I said, it took 2 or 3 minutes to sort-out the Legacy FW driver SNAFU - but this isn't exactly the universal doom and gloom that I read about. Repeatedly.

File me under "Perhaps lucky, but it just works"!
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby johnny h » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:01 am

Andi wrote:
johnny h wrote:
Andi wrote:Which bit?

The bit about firewire and USB soundcards not working properly. Quite important for audio work, really.

You know, I had figured that the audio interface thing might be a bit important for audio work, but I have a FF400 and I have a half dozen or so review USB interfaces here, and they all work under W8 on several machines. Like I said, it took 2 or 3 minutes to sort-out the Legacy FW driver SNAFU - but this isn't exactly the universal doom and gloom that I read about. Repeatedly.

File me under "Perhaps lucky, but it just works"!
Will do.

But Pete does this for a living, so I will take his advice first.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Goddard » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:47 am

This topic is apparently a response (if not a retort) to my earlier post:

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showf ... =1#1054501

Funnily enough (well, I think so), all I'd done there was to link to Microsoft's Win 8.1 preview page and quote from some info given on Microsoft's own Technet site describing "new" GUI features in Win 8.1 (as mentioned at the bottom of the page here):

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn140266

So, if anyone wishes to argue with what I posted/quoted, kindly take it up with Microsoft.

And if anyone doesn't care to have Win 8 forced upon them when purchasing a new PC, they might do well to ask the vendor about "downgrade rights".

OTOH, anyone wants Win 8 without metro and apps, check out Server 2012.

Btw, if it's not already apparent, MS' restoration of default boot-to-desktop and start button options in 8.1 is being done in order to cater to the corporate desktop market.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Pete Kaine » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:39 am

Andi wrote:
Like I said, it took 2 or 3 minutes to sort-out the Legacy FW driver SNAFU - but this isn't exactly the universal doom and gloom that I read about.

To be fair new drivers have flowed quickly from the interface guys over the last few months for all the cards that are currently available and work on the newer FW driver (hey, it's only taken 9 years...). I'm dealing with a few guys on legacy control surfaces at the moment that are still cursing it, but I suppose that's the price of progress.

Andi wrote:But Pete does this for a living, so I will take his advice first.

Just for clarity regarding the USB issue, I'm sure I mentioned this in the original thread but it's really more apparent when you overclock and CPU load the machine, so it's possible if Andi (or indeed anyone else) is running at stock and/or not thrashing the machine out in sessions, that he'll never come across it as it's fairly situational. It's just really annoying me now that I can't overclock systems as far as I'd like too (and we're not talking extreme here) in case the interface then goes and falls over, when it all appears to be down to the controller driver in the middle rather than the hardware or the ASIO. The problem is far more likely to occur on the X79 chipset than Haswell too, althrough due to heat you can't push the Haswells as far as the SBE's so I'm not sure how fair a statement that is overall, just how it is.
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Re: The desktop doesn't HAVE to come back in Windows 8.1...

Postby Ojustaboo » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:37 am

Exalted Wombat wrote:...because it's already there.

A Windows 8 laptop arrived here today. The first I've actually owned, rather than hastily set up for someone else.

It is trivially easy to tell it to boot to the Desktop. The Metro stuff can be treated as nothing more than a big Sidebar, doubling as a bloated Start Menu. Some of the apps are fun.

Don't use the app version of Skype, it lacks screen sharing. However, the desktop version can be freely installed. There's also something odd about the app version of Internet Explorer, but it works fine from the Desktop.

So, basically, most of the shouting has been about nothing.

I agree totally.

I uninstalled all the supplied apps and use Metro as a simple quick way of starting my own stuff when my other sw is already running.

One press on the windows key, one click on the app, and its running along with my other apps.

Couldn't be easier and is quicker than using start menu

I really really believe the press are the ones to blame for this with nearly every person I've found in the real world that criticise it, never having actually experienced it for themselves (the few that have, tried it for under 30 mins, and due to what they've heard, never gave it a chance)

I find it far quicker to use than any previous version of windows.

here's my metro

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8291/34db.jpg

If say I have something open on my entire screen and I want to also open FM8, it literally takes under 2 secs, Windows button, click on FM8 and I'm back to my desktop with it running.

Businesses are a different thing altogether but for the home user, it couldn't be better.
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