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The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

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The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby BJG145 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:30 pm

I was just reading an interview with blues guitarist Aynsley Lister where he says that he got into SRV, then found that everyone else was into SRV too, and SRV played a a Strat. And he didn't want to be like everyone else, so he got a Les Paul...

Surely if he didn't want to be like everyone else, he could have got something much more interesting and exotic...like a Yamaha G10; an early Yamaha MIDI guitar with a breath controller input. Antonio Onorato claims to be the leading G10ist, and on the basis of this video, I'm not arguing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkrEWA7 ... u.be&t=171

But back on topic, most guitar heroes play one or the other, don't they...? Why is that...? Obviously there are loads of exceptions, but they're pretty dominant models.

I don't know why there isn't more variety. It would be like 90% of keyboard players, or drummers, using the same two models. Perhaps it's because most guitarists start by wanting to emulate their heroes, so the cycle continues...?
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby Ramirez » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:56 pm

I don't think its anywhere close to 90%. I think the Telecaster has been more prominent than the Strat over the past decade or so, and I don't see so many Les Pauls either. Also semi-hollow Gibson and Gretches seem about as popular. I don't think the Strat and LP's reputation as the two most famous models are reflected in their current popularity and use.

For the record, I have an LP, a Tele and am desperate for a Strat!
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby Music Wolf » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:10 pm

I can't comment too much on Les Paul's as, much as I want to like them, they just don't suit me (nor do Telecasters for that matter).

I consider the Strat to be a thing of great beauty but it is also a fantastically practical design (Leo Fender was an Engineer, not a guitarist). Thanks to the beer gut curve it is very comfortable to play either on the strap or sitting down. It is easy to put together (bolt on neck, pickups and controls mounted on the scratch plate). You can understand why a Strat costs roughly half as much as a LP.

Then there's the sound - nothing cuts through a mix like those single coils.

The Les Paul did fall out of favour for a while in the early 60s but the Strat has been a hit since day one.

For me it's not a question as to why so many people play one rather - why doesn't everybody play one?
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby Sam Inglis » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:17 pm

I don't think the Strat/Les Paul orthodoxy is nearly as rigid as the Precision/Jazz stranglehold on the world of bass guitars.

As others have said, other models tend to dominate at least in some genres -- Teles in country, and pointy Ibanezalikes in metal.
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby blinddrew » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:33 pm

I suspect most people on this thread are commenting from a position of uncommon knowledge...
A quick google image search on "electric guitar" does support a preponderance of strats and les pauls: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=elect ... EQ_AUIBygC
I've never owned a strat but I have an epiphone les paul for a while, simply because it was the nicest guitar for me in the price range at the time - I wanted a tele but I've never been able to make them sound nice.
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby CS70 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:02 pm

I guess it's primarily a case of critical mass phenomenon. Something like that comes about by more or less random factors, but once it explodes, it self-fuels and it's very hard to change.

The vast majority of nonclassical guitarists play because at some point early in their life they met guitar-driven music they loved, and looked up to the guitarists who played it. Chances are these guitarists used a Strat or a LP (minor chances for a Tele and an SG and recently a PRS). Even if they don't, chances are extremely high that they used something looking like a Strat or a LP - because a ton of producers do stuff that to uninitiated eye look very much like one or the other. And when one starts playing, his eyes are often very much uninitiated.

So you learn to play something on your two-bucks acoustic, and you want to finally get an electric guitar. Cheap, for beginners, but electric nonetheless. What will you look for? Of course, something similar to what your heros play. And to your eyes, they play a Strat or an LP.

The whole thing started probably back in the 60s and 70s when the big names which made the guitar as the uber-popular instrument used LPs and Strats, because there weren't that many good manufacturers, and these two due both to their qualities and a bit of luck made the cut. From then on, each generation of guitarists looked at their predecessors, and copied them.
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby Darren Lynch » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:49 pm

thing is, both designs still stand up (not that you can always stand up with les paul drapped around you) and most other makes copy their essential traits. PRS would not exist without the les paul, and i'm trying to think of a single coil guitar which packs more in than a strat. I also agree that both have had to share the spotlight with the tele recently. one glaring flaw remains - no tone control on the strat bridge pickup (i know the us standard is corrected, the other models ain't)
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby forumuser918214 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:53 pm

Leo Fender hit grand slams with the Tele and the Precision - just the right kinds of instruments at the right time. Then comes the Strat - unlike the Tele, a thing of beauty, and with 3 pickups! All the above were engineered to be easy to build (cheap to build) as a primary design goal. And all were great to play.

The Les Paul had been around as a jazz guitar. It was as heavy as a bowling ball, but very fancy-looking compared to the Fenders. But it also had humbuckers. This made the difference in the early blues-rock days of Page and Clapton and Allman since the humbuckers could drive amps harder and create more distortion. This was before the days of amp simulators - you had to overdrive the real amps!

IMHO, neither the Strat or the Les Paul is as good in terms of playability or sound as some later axes, like PRS and Parker. But the Strat plays and looks great and if it is good enough for Jimi and Eric...
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby zenguitar » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:47 am

To the Les Paul and Strat I would add the Tele, Jazz and Precision Basses, ES335, and Gretch 6120. And in a 2nd tier I would add the SG, EB-0, EB-1, Ricky 330/360 and 4001.

These are the instruments that that dominated from the mid 50's to late 60's, in combination with a handful of classic amps. And more to the point, when Rock & Roll, Rhythm & Blues, and pop music came a long as a musical Big Bang these guitars and amps were the ones that came to define what the electric guitar and bass sounded like. They became the benchmarks.

And because we've been listening to those sounds on record, CD, tape, TV, movies, and radio for more than 50 to 60 years they sound 'right'. So when guitarists and bassists go shopping for instruments it is inevitable that they gravitate towards the ones that sound 'right'.

The only major exception is the evolution of active bass guitars through the 70's and 80's. Many of the same developments were applied to guitars too, but those never really took off in the mass market whereas the basses did. And that is largely because the electric bass guitar as conceived by Leo Fender was, and remains, an affront to the laws of physics.

Andy :beamup:
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby Jumpeyspyder » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:30 am

Never owned either LP or Strat, give me a choice and I'd choose humbucker sound of LP and scale and comfort of strat....

....strange my fav guitar is ibanez s series, ;)
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby VOLOVIA » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:23 am

zenguitar wrote:And that is largely because the electric bass guitar as conceived by Leo Fender was, and remains, an affront to the laws of physics.:

Please Zen, do expand on this!

On the general debate, I always found the LP and 335 'perfect' instruments, coming from an acoustic guitar prospective. Last year thought I was commissioned by a musical instrument shop to do a comparative video between chorus pedals and decided to use a mid-high range strat and the equivalent LP. A-B for hours (raw cuts, obviously), it hit me for the first time in my life how more versatile, ergonomic, and... alive the Fender was in comparison. The LP sounded like if I had taken a strat, made it 'smaller', took the 'beer-belly cut' out, made it heavier, removed the central pickup, and put a capacitor on the output to take the 'sparkle' out but added a small gain booster (with a gentle noise gate). After 40 years of guitar playing, some of it professionally, this was the first time that these (obvious) facts hit home...
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby zenguitar » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:08 am

VOLOVIA wrote:
zenguitar wrote:And that is largely because the electric bass guitar as conceived by Leo Fender was, and remains, an affront to the laws of physics.:

Please Zen, do expand on this!

With great pleasure :D

Bass = Big. It really is that simple. Stringed bass instruments have evolved in most cultures in time and space, and the way they work requires a big body and a long scale length. Use the grand piano as your benchmark, or the orchestral Double Bass.

Put simply, the scale length of the bass guitar is WAY TOO SHORT. And the clever kludge that Leo Fender came up with to compensate for that is in using string gauges that are WAY TOO FAT for the scale length. However, that introduces excessive inharmonicity in the bass guitar. The fundamental is in tune, but the harmonics are increasingly out of tune as you go up the harmonic series. This Wikipedia page is very helpful...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity

In the real world, where inharmonicity causes real problems is in perceived pitch. For a theoretically perfect string all the harmonics are in tune with the fundamental. But with a real world string (one with mass and thickness, etc) Each harmonic is increasingly sharp relative to the theoretically perfect string.

Where inharmonicity (the difference between the theoretically perfect string and the real world string with thickness etc) is small, the brain picks up the fundamental quite accurately and perceives the 'out of tuneness' of the harmonics as a tonal change. But where the inharmonicity is higher (a thicker string making the harmonics excessively sharp relative to the fundamental) the brain perceives things differently; it hears that the harmonics are sharp relative to the fundamental, but because they are so much more sharp than expected the brain miscalculates the pitch of the fundamental and imagines that it is flat because it is making an over adjustment.

Finally, as a simple comparison compare the scale length of an electric bass guitar playing the lowest E with the same note on a grand piano. The piano string is a lot longer and yet (due to inharmonicity) that piano string is tuned a few cents flat when stretch tuning is used. The real problem with fretted instruments is that the degree of inharmonicity increases as you go up the neck (due to the ratio between string thickness and scale length for the note being played); playing in the 1st position may well sound 'in tune' but playing at the octave may well be perceived as sharp and it just gets even worse when you approach the second octave working up the neck.

And before anyone mentions the U bass, the ukelele bass with the rubber strings... Yes, the limitations do still apply, but due to the string material the inharmonicity is significantly less than that of a steel string.

Andy :beamup:
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby VOLOVIA » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:03 am

Zen, I learned something new today, one of the few true pleasures in life. Thanks.
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby Music Wolf » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:20 am

zenguitar wrote:
These are the instruments that that dominated from the mid 50's to late 60's, in combination with a handful of classic amps. And more to the point, when Rock & Roll, Rhythm & Blues, and pop music came a long as a musical Big Bang these guitars and amps were the ones that came to define what the electric guitar and bass sounded like. They became the benchmarks.

And because we've been listening to those sounds on record, CD, tape, TV, movies, and radio for more than 50 to 60 years they sound 'right'. So when guitarists and bassists go shopping for instruments it is inevitable that they gravitate towards the ones that sound 'right'.

You could debate whether the early guitars and amps, with all their inadequacies (passive pick ups, unbalanced leads, speakers with limited range, amplifier distortion etc), just happened to sound pleasing and so contributed to the success of Rock and Roll or did the success of Rock and Roll define how a guitar should sound.

Whichever, it matters not. The fact is that the form of the Strat is burnt into my sole and it compels me to go out and buy more things 'Strat shaped' (I need to replace my Strat shaped pizza cutter which broke just before Christmas).

Looking at my other solid body guitars - they are all in some way Strat influenced. The Variax is a straight Strat copy and the Patrick Eggle Berlin Pro and PRS Studio 22 are both 'Stratified' Les Pauls. Set neck, humbucker equipped but with double cutaways, beer gut curves and trems.
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby BigRedX » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:29 am

As CS70 says I think a lot of it is down to what we start off on. Certainly most of the cheaper starter guitars and basses are derived from the tried and trusted designs of Fender and Gibson, and so when you are ready to upgrade you go with what you are used to.

That would certainly explain why I have never owned a Fender or Gibson.

My first electric guitar was one I made myself based on a variety of influences, mostly the Ibanez Iceman and Gibson Explorer. My first manufactured electric guitar was Yamaha Super-Strat, but it was chosen because it had a locking vibrato system over any other feature, and as soon as I could find myself a luthier who was prepared to make me something more interesting looking with the features I wanted, it was replaced with a custom made FretKing Esprit V (with locking vibrato). This along with a Gus G1 and a Hallmark Wingbat are now my guitars of choice.

When it comes to bass my choices have been just as esoteric. My first bass was a short-scale Burns Sonic, and this was eventually replaced with an extra-long scale Overwater Original. Nowadays I mostly play Gus G3s (and occasionally a Sei fretless).

Looking back it's probably because I got into music at the beginning of 70s glam rock where it seemed that every time my heroes appeared on TotP they were wielding ever more weird and wonderful custom instruments from John Birch (and others) rather than the more common fare, so it's probably no surprising that I've always hankered after the unconventional and uncommon when it comes to my choice of guitars and basses.

Of course the shocking state new Fenders that I encountered in my brief stint of working in a music shop in 1979 did nothing convince me that there was anything worth pursuing in that brand.
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby blinddrew » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:09 pm

Which is interesting (to me) because the nicest guitar i've ever played was a '79 tele. I still regret not buying it.
Whilst I'm on anecdotes, I have a book at home somewhere that says that Fender were never expecting the strat to become their most popular guitar. The book assigns it's success directly to Hendrix.
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:23 pm

I never fancied a Les Paul or a Strat back in the day, coveted and bought an SG (special circa 1970) then I walked past the front window of a music shop (the city centre shop, I worked at an out of town branch) and saw a black 25th anniversary LP Custom which changed my mind in an instant. I ended up buying a different LP Custom for budget reasons (a black 1975, bought new in 1978). Since then I have become a Strat convert and have a '61 replica and (in reference to Drew's comment above) the nicest guitar I've ever played is my 'bitsa' P90 Strat which has the most sublime Korean made Squire neck. I still have the LP though.....
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby CS70 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:45 pm

This thread is dangerous. I just went and got myself a 1980s Ovation Legend cutaway!

Obviously with the sole purpose of experiencing different brands than the usual :lol:
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby zenguitar » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:20 am

CS70 wrote:This thread is dangerous. I just went and got myself a 1980s Ovation Legend cutaway!

Don't ya just love it when a plan comes together :)

Andy :beamup:
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby John Egan » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:34 pm

Just thought I'd offer slightly different perspective............

For a budding guitar player growing up in the sticks in Britain during the mid to late 1950s - the early days of Rock and Roll - it certainly wasn't about Les Pauls and Strats. Most of their heroes had guitarists who played different models - Gibson archtops (Scotty), Gretsch (Eddie Cochran, Cliff Gallup), Tele (James Burton). The biggest home grown hero back then was Lonnie Donegan who played a Martin and his guitarists at that time (Denny Wright and Les Bennets) played Hofners. The Everleys played Gibson flat tops and Chet played Gretsch. The only major hero to play a Strat was Buddy Holly. And Little Richard played a piano!
In most cases, we didn't know what they played and it wouldn't have mattered if we did because it was near impossible to get hold of American guitars in those times. It was nearly ten years later that Strats and Les Pauls were to be seen in the hands of the heroes and even later by the time they were seen as tools of choice for gigging guitar players. During their first five years at the top, you wouldn't have seen a Strat or a Les Paul in the hands of the Beatles, Hollies, Kinks, etc., and visiting American bluesmen often used the cheaper brands. The first British big name to use a Les Paul was probably Keith Richards, who bought one in 1962, but it was a rarity then. Apart from Buddy Holly''s contribution, the Strat's rise to fame was probably due to Hank Marvin and tunes like Apache, which persuaded lots of kids that it wasn't necessary to be a virtuoso to make great records.
Maybe a kid in London would have been more clued up, but it really wasn't easy to know what was available. There was no Internet, no guitar mags, hardly any teachers who knew anything about rock and roll or blues and precious few jazzers. If you were lucky, you had a record player, a tutor (Bert Weedon or Mel Bay, anyone?)and a guitar with thirteens strings which was playable above the third fret! Perseverance was required.
It's different now, fortunately.

Regards, John
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby John Egan » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:35 pm

Just thought I'd offer slightly different perspective............

For a budding guitar player growing up in the sticks in Britain during the mid to late 1950s - the early days of Rock and Roll - it certainly wasn't about Les Pauls and Strats. Most of their heroes had guitarists who played different models - Gibson archtops (Scotty), Gretsch (Eddie Cochran, Cliff Gallup), Tele (James Burton). The biggest home grown hero back then was Lonnie Donegan who played a Martin and his guitarists at that time (Denny Wright and Les Bennets) played Hofners. The Everleys played Gibson flat tops and Chet played Gretsch. The only major hero to play a Strat was Buddy Holly. And Little Richard played a piano!
In most cases, we didn't know what they played and it wouldn't have mattered if we did because it was near impossible to get hold of American guitars in those times. It was nearly ten years later that Strats and Les Pauls were to be seen in the hands of the heroes and even later by the time they were seen as tools of choice for gigging guitar players. During their first five years at the top, you wouldn't have seen a Strat or a Les Paul in the hands of the Beatles, Hollies, Kinks, etc., and visiting American bluesmen often used the cheaper brands. The first British big name to use a Les Paul was probably Keith Richards, who bought one in 1962, but it was a rarity then. Apart from Buddy Holly''s contribution, the Strat's rise to fame was probably due to Hank Marvin and tunes like Apache, which persuaded lots of kids that it wasn't necessary to be a virtuoso to make great records.
Maybe a kid in London would have been more clued up, but it really wasn't easy to know what was available. There was no Internet, no guitar mags, hardly any teachers who knew anything about rock and roll or blues and precious few jazzers. If you were lucky, you had a record player, a tutor (Bert Weedon or Mel Bay, anyone?)and a guitar with thirteens strings which was playable above the third fret! Perseverance was required.
It's different now, fortunately.

Regards, John
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby Sam Inglis » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:03 pm

CS70 wrote:This thread is dangerous. I just went and got myself a 1980s Ovation Legend cutaway!

... and I've just bought a Strat ... something I've been meaning to do for years now.
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby blinddrew » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:29 pm

I'm going to have to stop reading this thread. :shock:
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby John Egan » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:09 pm

Music Wolf wrote:
The Les Paul did fall out of favour for a while in the early 60s but the Strat has been a hit since day one.

For me it's not a question as to why so many people play one rather - why doesn't everybody play one?

Music Wolf,

Like you, I love Strats for their sound and versatility. But I could never gig one. I had one in 1960 - bought from an American serviceman in the Cotswolds. He bought it new and had gigged it, he said, for 3 years . He had realised that he could get enough for it second hand in the UK (where Strats were not being imported yet) to be able to buy himself a new one when he got back to the States. He was a friend of the brother of a friend of mine, which was why he decided to sell it to me. I was sixteen at the time.
Sadly, much as I loved it (being a great Buddy Holly fan), I couldn't get on with it. I played "pick and fingers" and the middle pickup ripped my fingernails to shreds - painfully. I also
regularly knocked the volume down with my little finger. That guitar got me a lot of gigs but it had to go. After all it was only a second hand guitar, not a vintage icon.

They did fall out of favour in the UK from the time the Beatles eclipsed Cliff and the Shadows (1962). Right up to the end of the sixties not many kids in British groups wanted to be seen with a Strat. They mostly preferred semis.

Regards, John
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Re: The dominance of the Les Paul / Strat

Postby awjoe » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:11 pm

zenguitar wrote:
CS70 wrote:This thread is dangerous. I just went and got myself a 1980s Ovation Legend cutaway!

Don't ya just love it when a plan comes together :)

Andy :beamup:

You've got me seriously considering a bass uke.
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