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Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

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Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Murdoch » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:46 pm

Is the ability of a synth judged by its presets? If not, then how can I create "decent" (non-cheesy/generic) sounds on the LP?
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby flo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:58 pm

Apart from being able to create those 'generic' analog tones with quite some class IMO (it is a moog after all ;-), I think two things make it special: the very fast envelopes (for those ZINNNGY percussive noises)and the overdrive for some dirtyness.

Modulation helps to be 'special', too. It is quite a simple synth so just twist those knobs and assign the lfo to all destinations possible..

If you add the special CV outs/ins (or have a version that has them already fitted) you could further modulate or incorporate other CV gear...

If you want more options, you can always get a voyager :D
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Murdoch » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:29 am

flo wrote:Apart from being able to create those 'generic' analog tones with quite some class IMO (it is a moog after all ;-), I think two things make it special: the very fast envelopes (for those ZINNNGY percussive noises)and the overdrive for some dirtyness.
Not sure what you mean by "ZINNNGY percussive noises" or "overdrive for some dirtyness" the latter meaning distorted effect perhaps?

flo wrote:
Modulation helps to be 'special', too. It is quite a simple synth so just twist those knobs and assign the lfo to all destinations possible..
Simple indeed.

flo wrote:
If you add the special CV outs/ins (or have a version that has them already fitted) you could further modulate or incorporate other CV gear...

If you want more options, you can always get a voyager :D
Well the CV almost cost as much as the Alesis Micron, which has proven itself to being more fruitful in production than the Phatty. Having the ghastly feeling that I've made a mistake in purchasing the LP I wont be investing in it much further. It has also put me off the voyager greatly.

So is it safe to assume that I've thrown my money away? Or is there some secret synth-programming techniques that I as a new generation digital user have no clue on?
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby desmond » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:13 am

What sort of sounds are you expecting?

The Phatty is a, what, relatively simple dual-oscillator, Moog-sounding mono synth - which means you're going to get a range of basses, lead sounds, synthy bleeps and wobbly things. Plus don't forget to factor in signal processing with FX units, guitar pedals, plugins etc.

If the Phatty isn't giving you sounds you want, what sounds are you after? After all sounds are very much a taste thing, and until you developing your own synth programming skills, then you have to resort on other people's taste in patches and a bit of tweaking.
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby vinyl_junkie » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:20 am

Yep the answer is hand it over to me lol I'll swap you for my digital synth that does a lot more.. :headbang:

I'm not sure what you want the LP to sound like? Post some clips of sounds you want to make on the LP

I fell in love with Moog from the moment I played a Model D...this is from some one who thought what's with all the moog hype...now I'm obsessed, it made the sounds I was after for years, I would love the LP or a ATC-1

I love what this dude has done with his ATC-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNLL9VYjHMA

Alternatively you can have my Blofeld for your Moog hahah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXvA-AEVZ10
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Murdoch » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:20 am

desmond wrote:What sort of sounds are you expecting?

The Phatty is a, what, relatively simple dual-oscillator, Moog-sounding mono synth - which means you're going to get a range of basses, lead sounds, synthy bleeps and wobbly things. Plus don't forget to factor in signal processing with FX units, guitar pedals, plugins etc.
The bass sounds I gotta agree are wonderful. However the lead sounds all tend to sound the same regardless of how much I tweak around. Its only the timbre that tends to change.

desmond wrote:
If the Phatty isn't giving you sounds you want, what sounds are you after? After all sounds are very much a taste thing, and until you developing your own synth programming skills, then you have to resort on other people's taste in patches and a bit of tweaking.
Juicy, sweet sounding leads for one :)

How can I develop synth programming skills? Years of tweaking around? would a book do it?
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby vinyl_junkie » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:26 am

Oh mann the Moog has juicy fat leads..it's been used for that role for years, they all have that "tone" because it's a Moog :D

To me this is a lush lead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_N9sROcHHE
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Murdoch » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:43 am

vinyl_junkie wrote:Yep the answer is hand it over to me lol I'll swap you for my digital synth that does a lot more.. :headbang:

I'm not sure what you want the LP to sound like? Post some clips of sounds you want to make on the LP
Good idea.. I'm looking for sounds similar to the lead in the track "Reach for the stars" http://www.myspace.com/brokenome

That was done by some random soft-synth on Cubase. Maybe I'm automatically expecting a Moog to sound better than that soon as its switched on.

vinyl_junkie wrote:
I fell in love with Moog from the moment I played a Model D...this is from some one who thought what's with all the moog hype...now I'm obsessed, it made the sounds I was after for years, I would love the LP or a ATC-1
Dude you gotta help me love my Moog :crazy:
Have you worked with a Phatty yet?

vinyl_junkie wrote:
I love what this dude has done with his ATC-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNLL9VYjHMA
Wow! Beautiful.. thats what I'm after which I feel the Phatty doesn't offer. Isn't that the kinda sounds you'd find on a Virus TI?

I think what I might be missing is reverb, don't know :frown:

vinyl_junkie wrote:
Alternatively you can have my Blofeld for your Moog hahah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXvA-AEVZ10
hehe, got a Virus TI2 instead?

btw added and subbed you on youtube ;)
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Murdoch » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:49 am

vinyl_junkie wrote:Oh mann the Moog has juicy fat leads..it's been used for that role for years, they all have that "tone" because it's a Moog :D

To me this is a lush lead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_N9sROcHHE
Definitely love how that sounds. But the LP tends to only have like 1 or 2 decent lead sounds and that's it. Like you can tweak around on that one sound with its timbre and whatnot but its still the same sound.
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby desmond » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:50 am

One or two leads?

No, you've seriously got to develop your skills :)

My old Moog Prodigy, which in many ways is the old equivalent on the Lil Phatty, (when Minimoog = Voyager) is simpler than the Fatty, and there was quite a lot you could do with that...
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Murdoch » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:50 am

Well spent the last 3 hours messing around on the Little Phatty and as fun as it was, I'm now - yet again - left with nothing I can use. I've spent half that time on the Alesis Micron once last year and STILL find samples I use today.

Frustrated as hell, expensive things are supposed to be better aren't they? :headbang: :?
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Murdoch » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:51 am

desmond wrote:One or two leads?

No, you've seriously got to develop your skills :)

My old Moog Prodigy, which in many ways is the old equivalent on the Lil Phatty, (when Minimoog = Voyager) is simpler than the Fatty, and there was quite a lot you could do with that...
How can I improve my skills without going round in timbre circles?
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby desmond » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:53 am

Merdoc wrote:Good idea.. I'm looking for sounds similar to the lead in the track "Reach for the stars"

What, that thin "analog" type lead warbling around? - that's pretty horrible in there. Sounds like a one-oscillator patch with medium filter resonance and the filter being closed with the filter envelope (low sustain, medium/long decay and release).

Yes, the Phatty will do that easily and sound *much* better.
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby desmond » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:56 am

Merdoc wrote:How can I improve my skills without going round in timbre circles?

Play, tweak, learn, google, get friends to show you, and you'll develop over time. Read SOS's Synth Secrets articles on this site from the beginning. Put those things into practice.

Becoming a good synth programmer is like becoming a good guitarist - when you start, you're pretty rubbish, but the more you play and the more effort you put in, the more and faster you progress until you develop a worthy skillset, wher you can identify and create/recreate sounds relatively easily by ear.
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby The Elf » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:04 am

I don't know what you're expecting, but if you can't get a decent sound or two from a LP then I suspect you're looking for something it just can't do! The cheesey-ness, or lack of, is all in the programming.

I'll swap you an Alesis Micron for your LP any time at all!! :D
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby flo » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:02 am

Merdoc wrote:
flo wrote:Apart from being able to create those 'generic' analog tones with quite some class IMO (it is a moog after all ;-), I think two things make it special: the very fast envelopes (for those ZINNNGY percussive noises)and the overdrive for some dirtyness.
Not sure what you mean by "ZINNNGY percussive noises" or "overdrive for some dirtyness" the latter meaning distorted effect perhaps?
Sorry for not being clear. I meant it is very good at short, percussive tones. The envelopes are some of the fastest around (zero attack, short to no decay, and fire some 16th midi notes to it and you will see).

Distorted effects I meant, yeas. The opposite of cheesy so to say. Try different settings of resonance & overdrive it creates very special, living tones, which I cannot recreate easily on other synths.
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Martin Walker » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:29 pm

Merdoc wrote:How can I improve my skills without going round in timbre circles?

One of the best techniques I know (one borne out of not having enough money to buy the synths I wanted in the early days) is to track down a sound from another synth I really like, and then do my level best to recreate it on what I have.

This not only stretches your creative skills, but is also likely to generate new sounds along the way that you might never have discovered otherwise.

Just make sure you save your new creations regularly to preserve them for posterity :beamup:


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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby The Elf » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:39 pm

Martin Walker wrote:Just make sure you save your new creations regularly to preserve them for posterity :beamup:
Don't you mean draw them out on a badly photo-copied panel sheet? ;) :D
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Martin Walker » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:16 pm

That's exactly what I meant Elf ;)

When I started programming synths and playing them live there was no MIDI and no preset memories - I had to reprogram my monophonic synth between numbers using patch sheets while chatting to the audience

And you tell kids today...:beamup:


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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby vinyl_junkie » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:46 pm

Can you imagine what people will be saying in the future who are staring now lol
Back in my day we only had to live with 1000 patches on the Virus and it wasn't mind controlled or had the 20,000 patches of today's synths lol

Getting the most out of your limited gear is fun and most of all very rewarding not to mention more rewarding from the point of you can sit smug thinking ha I didn't spend 1k or more on some access virus yet I'm getting far more creative and nicer sounding results, now I have enough money to go out lol
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby vinyl_junkie » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:56 pm

Oh to your question regarding the Ti2 no I don't own one but I had a friend who had the white first ti what ever it's called, the 2 octave thing which I played on a bit..also I used to have a B ages ago.
I'm not the biggest Virus fan though, I preffer more quirky synths or vintage things which now cost too much and I can't afford lol

Instead of a Virus i'd rather have a DX-100, Bass Station Keyboard, Nord Modular mk1 and a Blofled lol

As to judging a synth by it's presets if this was the 90's again then they would all suck a lot..I think it's only recently that presets have got better. Roland SH-32 I remember quite well as being absolutely awful but what a great sounding synth if you program it.
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Zukan » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:10 pm

The Elf wrote:
Don't you mean draw them out on a badly photo-copied panel sheet? ;) :D

I heard about this.

I, of course, am only a youngling so have had to rely on stories passed down many generations.
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby vinyl_junkie » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:02 pm

I used to do this with my second synth which was a Bass Station keyboard back in 2002, this thing only had 5 patches and no6 was a free knob mode where the patch represented where the front panel knobs were a'la old skool pre-pattch memory synth.
As it only had a measly 5 sortable patches I had to jot down all the others on bits of paper lol
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby desmond » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:50 pm

When I was young, and couldn't afford the £80 or so for a synth cartridge full of 50 new sounds, one for the principle new sources for sounds was they'd print the patch charts of a new sound in a magazine.

If one month it happened to feature a synth I owned - free patch! I reckon I got, over a few years, at least 6 new patches that way! Maybe even 7...
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby vinyl_junkie » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:02 pm

desmond wrote:When I was young, and couldn't afford the £80 or so for a synth cartridge full of 50 new sounds, one for the principle new sources for sounds was they'd print the patch charts of a new sound in a magazine.

If one month it happened to feature a synth I owned - free patch! I reckon I got, over a few years, at least 6 new patches that way! Maybe even 7...

What like this :D
I must say the one called Juno-60 sounds quite nice heheh
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby vinyl_junkie » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:21 pm

Just checked out that my-space link and the track..if you are making that kind of music why not just get a Roland SH-09 and MPC-2000XL :bouncy:

I guess if you are not keen on the Moog tone then fair play..the mini can never seem to shift that "sound" and it's mainly what people pay for when they buy one...I mean I know people who prefer the tone of a Jap i.e. Roland synth to an American, personally I love them all and each has a place.
I have got to the point now were I won't sell any of my synths...I sold too many over the years and regret them all..even the M1...well I don't regret selling the CS-1X lol

Even the JX-3P does some leads on my stuff occasionally, if there would be a mode to make it monophonic that would be sweet but other wise it just mainly does strings and the odd bass sound...I would love the 8P
This is actually a preset on it...quite like it's thin tone, sorry for the uber cheesy intro hahah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-Gov0AGQk
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Murdoch » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:55 am

The Elf wrote:I don't know what you're expecting, but if you can't get a decent sound or two from a LP then I suspect you're looking for something it just can't do! The cheesey-ness, or lack of, is all in the programming.

I'll swap you an Alesis Micron for your LP any time at all!! :D
Already got an Alesis. I'll swap it for your Voyager though ;)
Nah I'll carry on fiddling around with it, not going to give up any time soon.

desmond wrote:
Merdoc wrote:Good idea.. I'm looking for sounds similar to the lead in the track "Reach for the stars"

What, that thin "analog" type lead warbling around? - that's pretty horrible in there. Sounds like a one-oscillator patch with medium filter resonance and the filter being closed with the filter envelope (low sustain, medium/long decay and release).

Yes, the Phatty will do that easily and sound *much* better.
You sir, are giving me hope. Well its meant to be thin or rather sharp sounding, but I want to do better.. much better. That why I got me a Moog.

desmond wrote:
Merdoc wrote:How can I improve my skills without going round in timbre circles?

Play, tweak, learn, google, get friends to show you, and you'll develop over time. Read SOS's Synth Secrets articles on this site from the beginning. Put those things into practice.

Becoming a good synth programmer is like becoming a good guitarist - when you start, you're pretty rubbish, but the more you play and the more effort you put in, the more and faster you progress until you develop a worthy skillset, wher you can identify and create/recreate sounds relatively easily by ear.
Sounds like something I can do, thanks ;)

vinyl_junkie wrote:Just checked out that my-space link and the track..if you are making that kind of music why not just get a Roland SH-09 and MPC-2000XL :bouncy:
That's really old stuff. I'm trying to improve way beyond what you've heard, the Phatty is one move towards that vision.

vinyl_junkie wrote:
I guess if you are not keen on the Moog tone then fair play..the mini can never seem to shift that "sound" and it's mainly what people pay for when they buy one...I mean I know people who prefer the tone of a Jap i.e. Roland synth to an American, personally I love them all and each has a place.
I have got to the point now were I won't sell any of my synths...I sold too many over the years and regret them all..even the M1...well I don't regret selling the CS-1X lol
From your experience, how does selling synths work? Like would I be able to get more than what I paid for if I sold the Phatty after it was discontinued? 'cause I don't mind selling it and investing the dosh on a Voyager (if am successful at programming half-decent sounds that is).

vinyl_junkie wrote:
Even the JX-3P does some leads on my stuff occasionally, if there would be a mode to make it monophonic that would be sweet but other wise it just mainly does strings and the odd bass sound...I would love the 8P
This is actually a preset on it...quite like it's thin tone, sorry for the uber cheesy intro hahah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-Gov0AGQk
Good stuff! That sound in 3:20 was sweet as, real smooth, doesn't matter what genre, that'll trigger a nerve. :beamup:
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby vinyl_junkie » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:46 am

Thanks, well the selling thing is I always sold them at a profit...So I was making money on what I sold and also at the same time trying everything to get to know what I like best.
For example I paid 120 for my TR-707..sold it for hold your breath 300 quid, got my AN-200 for £70 a friend wanted it off me cos of my sound set and paid me 200 quid, EMU Xtreme lead I got for 100 and sold it for 200, Bass Station keyboard swaped for a CS-1X which I swapped for a M1 which was worth more money than what I paid for the BS keyboard...list goes on I even managed to shift my Akai S2800 for a 30 quid profit lol and that was something because it was at the time soft samplers got really big.

I rarely will buy a new synth either because none of todays products interest me, b) it will devalue and c) rrp to high...
I got the Blofeld new but that's cos I'm one of those Waldorf freeks and wanted to support the new Waldorf plus you can't complain at it's price..analogue it ain't though.
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby vinyl_junkie » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:54 am

I would just spend loads of time on the Moog and you will get better at programing it as you become more familiar with how each knob effects the sound, a small amount of electronics knowledge I also found comes in handy.

My first synth I had was a DX-100 some say it's difficult to program although it's 1000 times less of an arse than a DX-7 but still spend enough time with the thing and you will deliver the goods...To this day it's one of my faves..yea a crappy budget digital synth from 85 with no filters..thing is as old as me lol
I don't have a good record with them though as all two of mine are broken and no more..so I have a TX-81Z which just ain't the same :-(

Some DX-100 lead's, tones, chords and tracks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDrZfmZuebs

Love it's crap 12bit sound
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Re: Programming interesting sounds on Little Phatty?

Postby Murdoch » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:16 am

vinyl_junkie wrote:I would just spend loads of time on the Moog and you will get better at programing it as you become more familiar with how each knob effects the sound, a small amount of electronics knowledge I also found comes in handy.

My first synth I had was a DX-100 some say it's difficult to program although it's 1000 times less of an arse than a DX-7 but still spend enough time with the thing and you will deliver the goods...To this day it's one of my faves..yea a crappy budget digital synth from 85 with no filters..thing is as old as me lol
I don't have a good record with them though as all two of mine are broken and no more..so I have a TX-81Z which just ain't the same :-(

Some DX-100 lead's, tones, chords and tracks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDrZfmZuebs

Love it's crap 12bit sound
You've got to put out an album or two dude!

Great sounds on that DX-100. I'm sure I've heard that sound at 0:40 on my favourite Trance tracks. Even the other samples.

Aren't these the kind of samples produced by the Virus? That'll be the next synth I'm looking to purchase, think it'll be much user friendly for a new generation synth owner like myself than the Moog.
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