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Studio construction materials

Postby Radioking » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:34 am

I thought it would be useful to have a thread that would help folk who are building studios & other acoustic projects find good cheap sources of materials.

Here is a good supplier of neoprene.

James Dolman
01924 445577
Unit 10, Rouse mill, rouse mill lane, Batley, WF17 5QB. UK.
The chap who dealt with me was called Simon.

I guess these people must supply the regular acoustic dealers as they are about 50% cheaper than them.
Anyone else got any money saving tips?
Cheers
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Paul Woodlock » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:03 am

Anyone else got any money saving tips?

Yep. Don't spend it!!! :)


hehe

but seriously......


AVOID

StudioSpares
Wickes ( and any 'family' DIY place )
Proprietary Exotic soundproofing materials. They cost the earth.


Soundproofing:

Plasterboard, Timber and Rockwool are all that's really needed for good soundproofing for the vast majority of applications. These materials are really cheap ( when you don't buy then from the places listed above ) as they are used in millions of homes and bildings across the world, and benefit from economy of scale.

Expensive vinyl mats, etc may give soem improvement, but nothing an extra layer of plasterboard wont' give you. The price difference is enormous. Plasterboard can be had for around £2/m2 if you shop around.

Acoustic Treatment:

Rockwool, Timber, Velcro and Cloth, are ALL common materials used in general construction, and again benefit from economy of scale. Again do not buy from studio suppliers, TOO expensive.


Buy your Plasterboard, Timber, Rockwool, etc,etc from Building Suppliers like Travis Perkins. The price will be as little as HALF the prices of the AVOID places I've listed above. And Studiospares rockwool is such a rip off, it's more than retail.

Buy your screws from [url]www.screwfix.com[/b] MUCH MUCH cheaper than Wickes/Homebase/B&Q OR buiding suppliers



The basics of DIY Studio Design is Materials are CHEAP, and the performance comes from GOOD DESIGN.


And talking of design, here's another money saving tip...

DON'T SPEND ON UNNECESSARY TREATMENTS.

To do this design a balanced system. In other words, it's no good having a billion layers of plasterboard on your walls and ceiling, if your doors and windows have crap Isolation. And vice versa of course.

Don't bother with a floating floor unless a] you have HIGH Isolation requirements, and b] you CALCULATE IT PROPERLY to get a LOW resonant frequency. Don't just bung some 1/4" thick strips of neoprene under some joists and boards, and hope for the best. you'll very likely be spending mooney on something that could easily make things worse in both your Isolation performance AND the acoustics of the room.

Floating FLoors are the MOST Misunderstood part of DIY studio Building. And in true internet fashion there's a lot of blind leading the blind.


Good post RadioKing! :) The thread should be made a sticky. There seems to be a lot of people here paying way too much for stuff.


Paul
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Guest » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:15 pm

Got the computer network up and running for a few minutes today and managed to drop in here in passing. I agree that this thread warrants stickiness and sticky it now is ;)

Thanks for all the useful info Paul and RadioKing; if anyone else has anything useful please feel free to add it.

0VU :)
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby new sonic arts » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:07 pm

hi

im currently looking into soundproofing my first dedicated project studio room.

likewise theres no way im going to studio specialists as its way overpriced, so ive been sourcing some materials myself...

ive found the following links so far on UK suppliers
http://www.rwsdrylining.co.uk/shop.htm
http://www.soundsolutionltd.co.uk/solutions.htm

im also talking to a fibreglass company
http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/
they said they have something called Nidaplast Acoustic
£12.40 for 4ft x 4ft. all i know is that its some kind of honeycomb structure, but there going to send me some spec sheets.

whatever material i buy, im basically thinking i'll cover the walls, probably the ceiling and floors too, and then make some kind of bass traps in the 4 corners. it probably wont be the greatest in the world, but it should be better than my old technique of hanging up lots of duvets/curtains... :) and it will be fairly cheap.

if anybody knows anything about the companies or materials ive listed above, or have any advise or comments please let me know

james
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Paul Woodlock » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:47 am

James Walker-Hall wrote:hi

im currently looking into soundproofing my first dedicated project studio room.

likewise theres no way im going to studio specialists as its way overpriced, so ive been sourcing some materials myself...

ive found the following links so far on UK suppliers
http://www.rwsdrylining.co.uk/shop.htm
http://www.soundsolutionltd.co.uk/solutions.htm


greetings James

you're going through the same thing as I did a long time ago when getting into this.

i.e looking for soundproofing specific materials.

For soundproofing you need MASS and preferably 2 masses with ONE airgap inbetween. I've found with experience the most COST EFFECTIVE means of providing mass, is standard 12.5mm thickness bogstanded housebashing Plasterboard. Simply by economy of scale it can be had for less than £2/m2.

The 'Soundblock' plasterboard is 833kg/m3, v. 660kg/m3 for standard plasterboard. =>26% Denser.

However it is nearly 300% more expensive!!!

Same goes for massloaded sheets at a zillion shekels per m2. You gotta wiegh up the benefits against simply adding another layer of standard plasterboard.




im also talking to a fibreglass company
http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/
they said they have something called Nidaplast Acoustic
£12.40 for 4ft x 4ft. all i know is that its some kind of honeycomb structure, but there going to send me some spec sheets.

whatever material i buy, im basically thinking i'll cover the walls, probably the ceiling and floors too, and then make some kind of bass traps in the 4 corners. it probably wont be the greatest in the world, but it should be better than my old technique of hanging up lots of duvets/curtains... :) and it will be fairly cheap.

if anybody knows anything about the companies or materials ive listed above, or have any advise or comments please let me know

james

Same principle goes for absorption materials too. Standard mineral wool slabs are used for thermal insulation in millions of constructions across the world. The market is FAR greater than the acoustics/studio market. hence the products are a LOT cheaper.

50mm thick 45kg/m3 rockwool is available for around £3/m3. That Nidaplat stuff is £8.39/m2

My advice is don't be rash, and learn a bit more about things before commiting a design. :) There's plenty of people about that will gladly help ya! :)


Paul

p.s The more expensive materials are used more often in commercial constructions where the materials only account for a SMALL portion of the total budget. So triple the price of your absorption, for example, could only add, maybe 1% to the total budget.

However, with DIY projects, where you're doing your own project management, design, labour and testing,etc,etc, the materials are usually 100% of the budget, and therefore using cost efficient materials can cut your budget in HALF, or even more!!! Which in a lot of cases, is the price of a decent synth, decent mike, or even a great set of monitors! :)

p.p.s there isn't one ;)
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Radioking » Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:08 pm

I agree with Paul, that stuff is much too expensive.
Back on topic, here is another good place for supplies in N/E london.
Chambers Timber
70 Leyton Road, London, E15 1DG
Telephone: 02085346318
Absolutely the cheapest timber I have come across (2" x 2" is 46p per Metre)
They do sell loads of other stuff so its worth checking them out if you are Local.
Cheers
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Laurent » Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 pm

True it is that you won't need expensive materials to do something good, as long as you avoid putting eggboxes everywhere on your walls ;) As for my room, it's about 10 cm of rockwhool covered by plaster (was cheap and easy to set, although I reckon something else than plaster might have been welcomed). But I'm looking for an info: I'd like to cover one or three of my walls (depending of one solving my problem or not) with the kind of "diamond mousse"(it's a french-english word, since I don't know the real english word) that you can find in flightcases). What is it called? In what kind of shop can I buy pannels of that? If anyone knows...

Thanks

Laurent
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Computers4Studios » Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:51 pm

Although we sell (at retail prices I hasten to add) Auralex products, we have a fully fledged studio and demo environment here, we have seen some extortionate pricing for sound proofing materials. SOME professional materials are pretty essential, but not that many, you can make most of the things you need and just make sure you use good heavy materials, don't skimp on 8 or 9mm plasterboard, use 12.5 or thicker (if you can get it) boards and lay your first layer then your next layer the opposing way, tape and seal EVERY edge. We also highly recommend using the U-Boats by Auralex, they aint too cheap, they aint too expensive, and they do work wonders.

If you really do want to get your space sorted get a couple of books by F Alton Everest, the guy is a master of doing things on a budget!

DO use good quality, DON'T use eggboxes or similar.

As a last point, we get trade discount on most building materials, and we have found through trial and error that B&Q is often as cheap if not cheaper than many builders yards. Having said that we also know of at least 3 builders yards that have public prices at least 3-400% more expensive than their trade prices....shop around..caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby gerard » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:22 pm

the http://www.homedepot.com/ website has a drywall calculator! just click on the KNOW-HOW menu at the top and then click on calculators!

it even tells you how many screws you need... also has an insulation calculator...

fun stuff!

-gerard
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby midgeybin » Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:09 pm

Been finding it difficult to get decent info on floor isolation.Until now.The posts from Paul have been refreshingly frank and to the point.Having browsed most of the forums I have been frustrated by the advice on offer.Often contradictory,sometimes incorrect and most irritating of all vague.I have hired 2 acoustic experts here in Scotland for a new rehearsal room complex and found it just as difficult to get an opinion as to the best methods for soundproofing.I have finally had my building warrant/planning approved and will begin construction in 2 weeks.I will build 6 seperate rooms using the room in a room method. Outer leaf 200mm dense block with 13mm render.Inner leaf 2 layers of 12mm plasterboard on 4x2 studs floated on seperate 6 inch concrete floors atop subsoil.
Ceilings will be mounted on block and inner stud wall.
Question. I am loathe to float the concrete floors on joists with neoprene pucks.Given that my inner walls will be built off the floor I think it would be far too difficult to calculate the correct puck spacings etc.I have decided to float the floors with Rockwool as my resilient layer.
Will this give me enough Low end isolation between rooms?
Would adding another 2 inch screed on top of the concrete with another resilient layer between help.I realise an air gap is important for kick drum/bass isolation but find the complexities of the construction daunting.Thank you again P.W for most informative forum on the net.
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby ChristianG » Thu May 12, 2005 12:23 am

If anyone is in the Southern California area, and is in need of OC 703 or 705, Scottdru gave me a referral to this company:

Southwestern Insulation
12851 Nelson Street
Garden Grove, CA 92460

Phone:(714) 530-2980
Fax: (714) 530-6011

They will usually deliver it to you for free if you are local and their prices are pretty good. They generally have to order the Owens Corning products, but they stock the Knauff equivalent of the 703 and 705. Hope this helps. Ask for Angel, she was very helpful.
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby godin sx » Sun May 29, 2005 1:54 am

I got my hands on a bounch of closed cell foam from a company that I worked for the closed it's doors and I'm in the process of completing our new jam room Image check it out and let me know what you think and I can still get cases of this stuff 1.5 cases did this room
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby PWGLE » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:49 pm

Always hagle with Travis Perkins, there prices are way to high and they know it! ;)

When I built the extension last summer, I was able to get certian materials at 1/2 list price.

A simple ''nah thats to much, surly you can go lower'' normally does it.
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Muttley » Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:04 am

Thank you People
I am 3 weeks away from starting my build and was days away from ordering £1600 worth of 'specialist' materials, as this was making me feel slightly uncomfortable I thought hang on, SOS have a forum, wonder if anybody knows if this stuff actually works. And here you are, advice from people who don't want to sell me anything. Thank you, thank you thank you, I love you all ( in a purely platonic sense of course)
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Wurlitzer » Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:18 pm

Can anyone suggest a good place in or near London to buy thick, dense concrete blocks? I'm looking for the 190mm thick, maximum density ones. Wickes and Jewsons only seem to sell the standard 100mm thick ones for cavity walls.

I found some wholesalers on the net that have the full range but they only seem to sell to building suppliers. So someone somewhere must have these blocks to sell to the public!
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Wurlitzer » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:02 am

No-one?
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby phantomfield » Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:04 am

I hope you find somewhere but I think your best bet is just to get TP, Jewsons or whoever to order them in for you. I don;t know the suppliers in London. Good luck.

btw I say this because often the main suppliers aren't geared up for delivering less than very large loads which they'll normally be supplying direct to the likes of TP who have the small trucks to transport it to you. Have you a truck ? Potentially there is some serious wieght to move.

As well it would be much easier if they were able to offload the pallets with a small crane lrather than you have to break open the pallet and personally handball them to where ever they'll be stored until use. These kinds of things are worse considering at this stage, the logistics of it all. Best wishes.
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby balaftuna » Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:27 pm

did anyone used AcoustiPro products? I had a very good impression, but my knowledge is minimal on the subject.
cheers.
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby mattm » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:45 pm

i will say this straight off(and i hope its ok for me to mention it), i have an interest in this product as i(meaning my company) will be importing it

GreenGlue - www.audioalloy.com it looks very impressive, we will be testing it ourselves when it arrives here, i hope it does what i says on the tin. Supposed to be very good for low frequencies...
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Joel DuBay » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:40 pm

In the States, we have a material called Owen's Corning 703. Many of you may have heard of this or may have seen articles written about it elsewhere on the net. This is mashed rigid insulation that typically comes in 48x24x4 inch panels.

My question is: Is this or something very similar available in the UK and other places outside the USA?

Please, if you have information on this, respond.

Many thanks gents and gals!


~ J
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby mattm » Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:35 pm

powerjoe wrote:In the States, we have a material called Owen's Corning 703. Many of you may have heard of this or may have seen articles written about it elsewhere on the net. This is mashed rigid insulation that typically comes in 48x24x4 inch panels.

My question is: Is this or something very similar available in the UK and other places outside the USA?

Please, if you have information on this, respond.

Many thanks gents and gals!


~ J
We import 6lb.ft density, which i think might be 705? we do that as the stuff in this country doesnt come in big enough sheets for our purposes, the 25mm we used to use years ago wasnt consistant enough. I dont know what alternatives there are though
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Joel DuBay » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:37 pm

Ah!


Do you know the dimmensions of those sheets of 705?


Cheers,

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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby mattm » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:14 pm

The stuff we used to buy were small, only 1.5m i think, but i dont know if they are still avialable, i will find out for you, the sheets we import are 2.4 or 3.0m long but i dont know if they are available for sale, again i will find out and get back to you
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Paul Woodlock » Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:23 pm

Joel DuBay wrote:In the States, we have a material called Owen's Corning 703. Many of you may have heard of this or may have seen articles written about it elsewhere on the net. This is mashed rigid insulation that typically comes in 48x24x4 inch panels.

My question is: Is this or something very similar available in the UK and other places outside the USA?

Please, if you have information on this, respond.

Many thanks gents and gals!


~ J

Rocksil RS45/Rockwool RWA45 - 45kg/m3 and..

Rocksil RS60/Rockwool RW3 - 60 kg/m3 are...

The rough equivelents or 703 and 705.

OC703/705 is glasswool ( glassfibre ), while rocksil and rockwool are mineral wool.

Either works great. If you specifically fancy glass fibre then a company called Isover sels in EU/UK
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Joel DuBay » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:11 pm

Paul, thank you very much.

This is great information for those who want a DIY solution for their acoustic space.

Many thanks again,
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby gunslinger757 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:25 am

hi, i've just joined this forum after searching the internet for some sound proffing advice. Here's a few tips for anyone wanting to build stud (partition) walls for their studio. (i'm a shopfitter by trade)

materials

As someone has said, use a builders merchant for your materials. Buy your screws by the box (much cheaper). for stud partitions, The minimum size timber you should be using is 75mm x 50 mm (3"x2"). Plaster board comes in various sizes, mostly for ease of handling. i.e to let the DIYers get it in their cars from the DIY sheds. a Standerd size sheet is 2400mm x 1200mm. they come in square edges for plastering and tapered egdes for drylining. the drylining method entails fixing the boards with 40mm gyproc screws and filling the screw holes and the egdes of the board with gyproc easi-fill. This can be done to a reasonable finish by anyone with time and a bit of DIY knowlege

construction

a stud wall consists of a head, a sole and legs. the legs are fixed with 3" nails through the head and the sole at 400mm centres. however, and heres a trade secret for you, make the distance betwen your first and second stud 375mm this will ensure your boards finish in the centre of the a stud, enabling your next board to fix onto it. when measuring your legs, measure both ends of the room along the lenght of the wall in case the floor and ceiling is running out of level and allow about a quarter of an inch gap clearence. Mark your centres on your head and sole and then nail the legs. once nailed, nail a row of noggins through the centre, this adds stability. lift the wall up into place and fix it top and bottom every 3 ft (900mm). Once it's fixed you may need to add further noggins to attach socket boxes, switches etc. It can then be boarded either with square egded or tapered boards. If your going to give it a double skin of boards, rememebr to stagger the joints. i.e if your first board it 1200mm make the first board of your second skin 0r 900. fix the boards with gyproc screws, easier than nailing, 40mms for single skin, your second skin will need at least 50mms. If your going to insulate it with cosy wrap, (sorry slang name for rockwool) board one side first. It might seem obvious but i did have one of my apprentices ring me and say "i can't get the cosy wrap to stay in the wall". cosy wrap is 400mm wide so should fit between your studs quite nicely. If your room is higher than 2.400mm you will also need a row of noggins 2.400 mm high to catch your next row of boards.

ps the method i have described assumes you have enough room to build your wall on the floor and lift it into place. if it has to be built in situ, simply fastenign your head and your sole to the ceiling and the floor and fix your legs individually.
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Steve Hill » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:17 am

Paul Woodlock wrote:
Rocksil RS45/Rockwool RWA45 - 45kg/m3 and..

Rocksil RS60/Rockwool RW3 - 60 kg/m3 are...

The rough equivelents or 703 and 705.

I'm slightly confused here. Mattrpg says the 705 is 6 lb/cu ft. If you bear with my maths for a moment -

1 metre = c.39" so 1 m3 = 59319 cu ins.
1 cu ft = 1728 cu ins
So 1 m3 = 34.21 cu ft.

1 kg is about 2.2 lbs
So 60 kg/m3 is 132 lbs

132 divided by 34.21 equals 3.85 lbs/cu ft.

Roughly speaking, you would need to go up to 100kg/m3 to get to (a little over) 6 lbs/cu ft. I'm happy to be challenged on my maths here!

Otherwise, from the point of view of comparing US and UK brands, is it in fact fair to say RS60 is broadly equivalent to 705?
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby Sund » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:10 pm

There is a start kit from a swedish company, that has been sold to a lot of swedish home studios.

http://www.akustikmiljo.se/public/dokument.php?art=330&parent01=198&parent02=248&level2_4=true
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby narcoman » Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:09 pm

...... amazing.

Just read through this list and it thoroughly astounds me that after all this time, and after looking at what some of you do , that many still do not comprehend the vast distinction between soundproofing and acoustic treatment. How helpful exactly is that for the novice's that frequent here when even some of the "recording professionals" dont know? Auralex foam to soundproof ? COME ON PEOPLE.....
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Re: Studio construction materials

Postby narcoman » Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:50 am

ooooh. that sounds a little tesre on read back. Apologies for any offence or misreadings....
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