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soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:23 am

i am moving to a detached 4 bed house with a 2 car garage (1 giant door)

this is rented property...

i was going to put my room in one of the 4 bedrooms but the garage looks like a bigger space and could be done in a way that makes loading gear in and out easier...

i'm not to concerned about soundproofing the noise from inside the room as we are in a detached house on a corner lot that is pretty far from the neighbor... its the sound of the traffic outside that will be the real problem...

the traffic outside isn't too bad, just that you can hear cars driving by outside and i really would like to minimize this...

i'm thinking i could build a room within the garage...

what do you guys think of 2x4 wood frame contruction with plywood panels and sheetrock panels with insulation inside the walls? no windows and just a tight fitting door...

i would also have a low noise ventilation system...

this room would have its own floor, 4 walls and a ceiling...

i would be happy just tracking guitars and vocals in it but as it is a double garage should i make it big enough for drums?

i would also mostly be mixing and doing my guitar and vocal overdubs here...

all the tracks on my web site were recording in either a bedroom or utility room and lounge in my old house(s).
http://marlowx.com/

i guess it would be cool to get better drum sounds but tell me what you guys think of these recordings?

i really appreciate the great tips, especially the money saving tips on buying materials from local lumber/diy stores as opposed to expensive audio soundproofing shops!

thanks guys!
-gerard
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby bert stoltenborg » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:38 am

How is this garage constructed?
Brick walls? How did they make the roof?
How far is the traffic from the garage?
How far are your neighbours?
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:19 am

garage is double-sized with 1 large metal door.

it is made out of big grey bricks... i think these are called cinder blocks? (i'm american)

the road in front of the house is about 30 feet away from the front of the garage and the driveway slopes down from the road at about a 25 degrees or maybe steeper so the garage is down from the road... above the garage is a large double bedroom...

no neighbors to the behaind or to the left of the house... just one house about 40 feet to the side from the garage...

there is also a little utility room/space at the back of the garage where there is a door into the house...

i'll try and take a picture but we don't move in till the 11th of march
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:52 am

here is something i just found surfing/searching on the net...

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/titles/Plans.htm

a collection of simple generic plans for studio or control rooms...

scroll down to Garage studio 1 and 2 and control room...

some simple room concepts/shapes would be a great starting point for me... is it true that in general there are some basic room shapes/proportoins that are good in principal that a slob like me can build without pulling out a slide rule or calculator or running some kind of room analyzing program etc...
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:52 am

ok, from the same web site i found this:

So what size should a control room be? These days people are building bigger and bigger control rooms because so much happens in the control room now. Often the bass player and keyboard player actually sit in the control room. I often have the vocalist singing in the control room while the bed tracks go down, so a good size control room is a good idea.

So many people think that you need a big studio and end up putting a poky little room at the end and call it a control room. I suggest that a control room ideally should be at least 6m x 5m with a minimum ceiling height of 2.4m. This size room means a good sized working area with space for the musos, friends and hangers on. Also because you don't want rear reflections to interfere it is better to start with a longer front to back dimension than the side to side dimension. i.e. 6m x 5m.
###

6m x 5m... hmm... isn't that getting pretty close to using up most of the space in a 2 car garage? Not much room for drums anymore! Can i keep the same room design with a 5m x 4m room?

anyway, The Garage Studio 2 from the web site in my previous post looks like the most promising design from my garage... although it looks like i might only have room for the control room!

What are your thoughts on making a smaller control room?

or at 6x5 meters would i have a decent sized control room that i can also track my guitar overdubs and vocals and spend most of my time mixing? These are my priorities anyway... and i don't want to shortchange my mixing environment in order to occaisonally track drums...

Bear in mind I am coming from recording in a bedroom, lounge etc... so could i get away with tracking occaisonal drums in my 'control room' garage space?
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby bert stoltenborg » Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:34 am

Worst scenario, a truck passing by, you would have a source power of about 104 dB(A). At 10 meter that means a 73 dB(A) immision on your studio.
So to get this down to say 30 dB(A) would mean you have to isolate 43 dB. Quit a bit.
100 mm cinderblock has a Rw of about 34, 200 mm goes to 41.
You probably have to built a resilient construction of some kind.
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:33 pm

Bert,

this is very useful information. what do you mean by "resilient" construction? Is this 2x4 stud frames with sheetrock or plywood panels and insulation inside the frames? I found a web site that illustrated several types of walls and the amount of soundproofing they provide... Your data gives me a pretty good guide for how well soundproofed i need to build.

thanks for your help,
gerard
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:44 pm

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/pages/STC%20Chart.htm

this is the web site that lists various types of walls and their soundproofness...

which wall design do you think will do the job?

thanks again!
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby bert stoltenborg » Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:33 pm

A stud-with-sheetrock wall would get you in the right direction. Let the studs not touch the cinderwall.
Use two layers of sheetrock, one sheet to seal the joints of the other. Seal joints like your life depends on it with something like butyl kit.
Try to make the gap with the cinderwall as large as possible and fill the gap with mineral or glass wool.

On the site of the NRC there are many of these constructions with data.
Take care of a comparable construction for your garage door.

By the way, these STC values can be used fairly well with traffic and natural background noise but they are almost worthless when considering music noise. So your drum sessions could be a pain to your neighbours 12 meters away make 'm :protest:

I love these smileys
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby bert stoltenborg » Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:36 pm

Forgot:
Do not triple leaf. Don't built a sheetrock-stud-sheetrock wall in front of the existing wall. This would make things worse. Seal the existing wall and built a single leaf wall in front of it.
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby Eric Desart » Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:43 pm

bert stoltenborg wrote::protest:

I love these smileys
LOL, ;) :D :D :D

SOS, may Bert have some of those Smileys, Please? .... Please? .....
:headbang: That must be the thenth time Bert repeated this ....
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby bert stoltenborg » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:00 pm

Hey Eric,

Your not lobbying for me because you still hope for you-know-what?
:bouncy:
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby bert stoltenborg » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:01 pm

Gerard,

I must warn you because Eric and me spoil the entire internet with getting off topic in threads ;)
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby Eric Desart » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:11 pm

I'm still working on this one.

But it's a collection of the most valuable related documents on the net.
Will be further extended.

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=1467
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:52 pm

heh heh... thanks guys! :crazy:

so, left and right sides of garage have cinder blocks so maybe 4 inches of space (filled with woolly stuff?) 2 staggard layers of sheetrock - 2x4 studs (with insulation/wooly stuff inbetween the studs - covered by some kind of cloth?

the wall facing the front/garage door side? should i attach a layer of insulation onto the inside of the garage door? come up with some way of sealing around the garage door? then 2 layers of staggard sheetrock - 2x4 studs - insulation and cloth to hold it in?

or should the wall facing the garage door have the staggard 2 walls with staggard 2x4 studs and sheetrock on the outsides of each stud wall? and insulation inbetween the stud walls?

i hope this is clear enough... argh... then of course there is the acustic treatment inside the room! :headbang:
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby Eric Desart » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:09 pm

bert stoltenborg wrote:Hey Eric,

Your not lobbying for me because you still hope for you-know-what?
:bouncy:

:roll: You're dreaming .........

I couldn't find a more gentle and friendly nice wrapped manner to shut you up.
It IS a VERY nice and FUN collection of smileys.
I believed you the first time too ............ I always do .....

I showed you my girl friend,..........
Image
Source: http://www.funnypop.com/cartoons/images/body-language.jpg
:angel: Why should I look any further ???? :tongue:
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby bert stoltenborg » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:15 pm

idea is IMHO to either seal the door and try to make it about the weight of the cinderblock wall (maybe by attatching dry wall or plywood, depends on moisture etc) and then put a sheetrock wall in front of it, or put a new double sheet rock wall in front of it (leafs not attatched), but take care that the original door doesn't act as a third leaf.

Nice set of papers, mr. Desart! Petje af!
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:19 pm

yes, very nice papers! looks like i have my reading materials for this weekend... :roll: :boring:
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby Paul Woodlock » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:41 pm

Greetings gerad :)

See the floating floor thread. Some words on your floor there.... ;)


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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:40 am

thanks Paul, have been reading it with great interest...
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:41 am

Image

i like this layout! but it could be too big for a british 2-car garage?

i think i will go for doing a good sized control room so mixing is more accurate/comfortable and then could track the occaisional drum kit on occaision... if there is enough room i can build the live room...

if i put my desk on locking wheels i can roll it up against the wall when i have more musicians or drums to record, when finished tracking i can roll the desk back to the marks on the floor so that the speakers are at the right distance from the walls...

what do you guys think?

acoustically, would you consider a thin metal garage door to be a "wall" - isn't it pretty transparent? it doesn't really stop much sound i'm guessing...

i suppose i can insulate the garage door...

can i put 6 layers of sheetrock on the wall facing the garage door? that is where most of the noise will be coming from... then maybe 3or 4 layers on the left and right side walls as they will have the cinderblock walls...
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:32 pm

wall detail
Image

this is the wall detail for inside the garage.

notice the corner, is this how you guys would construct it?

also, in america plywood and drywall/sheetrock usually come in 4 foot by 8 foot panels... is it the same here in the UK?

does it make sense to build the walls in panels the size of a sheet of plywood/sheetrock (4x8 or 4x6 etc) and then bolt them together? this would allow me to dissassemble the room easily if needed.

thanks for your feedback!
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby Paul Woodlock » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:58 pm

gerard wrote:wall detail
Image

this is the wall detail for inside the garage.

notice the corner, is this how you guys would construct it?

That's pretty much how I did my studwalls. I did the corner the same, buy used 2 instead of 3 studs ( I didnt' use the one right on the corner.

also, in america plywood and drywall/sheetrock usually come in 4 foot by 8 foot panels... is it the same here in the UK?

Yup. IN the UK it's 2400mmx1200mm ( 8 x 4 )

does it make sense to build the walls in panels the size of a sheet of plywood/sheetrock (4x8 or 4x6 etc) and then bolt them together? this would allow me to dissassemble the room easily if needed.

thanks for your feedback!

Yep, you shuld put your studs on 400 or 600mm centres, and put your noggins at heights of 600mm multiples.


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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby Gary H » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:44 pm

Be careful to check the sizes of your plywood and plasterboards , as wood stuff usually comes in 1220 mm x 2440 mm, which is exactly 4x8, whereas plasterboard (rockwall) comes in 1200 mm x 2400 mm, which is 3/4 inch narrower and 1.5 inches shorter than 4x8.

I found this out when fitting the plasterboards to my garage studio conversion, after making all the studs 16 inch centres....

We (UK) never really converted to metric properly and there is plenty of room for costly and time consuming errors if you don't triple check this stuff !!!!!
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby Tim. » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:33 pm

Gary H wrote:We (UK) never really converted to metric properly and there is plenty of room for costly and time consuming errors if you don't triple check this stuff !!!!!

You can say that again ;)

The fact that virtually everyone in the UK uses “mm”, the lowest resolution, has always baffled me. Can you imagine quoting measurements of yards and inches in thousands of an inch?

1,220 x 2,440mm = 122 x 244cm = 1.22 x 2.44m

Much simpler to do away with those superfluous zeros and silly large numbers :)

Tim ;o)
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:30 pm

Tim Rainey wrote: Can you imagine quoting measurements of yards and inches in thousands of an inch?

It has always baffled me too! Can you imagine any builder or shippy working to millimetre accuracy. Getting a bricky to work to the nearest centimetre is a major achievement!

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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby cc. » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:17 pm

It doesn't baffle me one bit - it's very easy for a decimal point to get lost, but not so easy for a zero to get lost. And cm's are not accurate enough for the thicknesses of things, so better than mixing... always use mm :protest:
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby Paul Woodlock » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:34 pm

Tim Rainey wrote:
Gary H wrote:We (UK) never really converted to metric properly and there is plenty of room for costly and time consuming errors if you don't triple check this stuff !!!!!

You can say that again ;)

The fact that virtually everyone in the UK uses “mm”, the lowest resolution, has always baffled me.

Doesn't baffle me in the slightest. I really like the mm. It's about the right accuracy for good working. The old imperial system is a pain in the arse.


Can you imagine quoting measurements of yards and inches in thousands of an inch?

Not really, but there's no good analogy here. 1/1000th of an inch is 0.0254 of a millimetre. Which would be silly.

1,220 x 2,440mm = 122 x 244cm = 1.22 x 2.44m

Much simpler to do away with those superfluous zeros and silly large numbers :)

Tim ;o)

Completely disagree. ;)

I hear what High is saying about builders and chippies, and when tey're being paid by the job they'll do it as quick and as innacurate as possible. However a good chippy when he has the encouragement will work to better accuracy than a millimetre.
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Re: soundproofing against outside noise (traffic etc)

Postby gerard » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:09 am

thanks for those tips on lumber/sheetrock sizes!

as an american i have to admit that the metric system is so much easier to use... but it sounds funny to say a piece of wood is 12000mm... instead of using a larger unit of measure... but it should be more accurate i guess... do you guys say 2 meters and 25 mm?

if you have a metric tape measure is it in mm's or bigger units? i suppose it is easy to convert between each metric unit anyway...

now about garage studios!

do you guys put the roof joists on top of the wall or the side of the wall? am i phrasing this correctly? do you know what i mean?

if i connect the roof joists to the top inside edge of the wall i probably need to cut out sections of the sheetrock so that the joist can connect directly to the 2x4 frame as 5 layers of sheetrock are hardly strong enough to mount a roof on! and cutting all the notches out of the drywall must be a pain in the arse!

so i guess resting the joist on top of the wall frame is the way to go, but the chip-board engineered joists that i was thinking of using are quite thin and tall so i am kinda worried about securing them, uh... securely to the wall... i'm sure there is a way though...
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