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Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:45 pm

A while ago I replaced my trusty old Yamaha DD-55 drum pads with a DD-65. Today I came to use them in anger and I've hit an annoying problem.

The hat pad sends out the wrong MIDI note, ignoring whether the open/close pedal is pressed.

I've done a few searches across the net and it seems to be a well-known problem. Yamaha fixed it in later production and offered a free ROM upgrade to sort out earlier devices.

I don't know whether it's still a free service (I've written to Yamaha in the hope that it is), but it appears I have to get the pads to Milton Keynes to stand any chance of getting the fix done!! Wha?!?!?!

Do any of you guys have the files/tools/know-how to let me do this myself (I'm assuming it's simply a firmware update - maybe over MIDI?), or is a service centre really the only way? This isn't exactly expensive, top-shelf gear and I really can't justify spending money on transport or delivery charges to fix this.
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby Lizardpoint » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:26 pm

Hi there,

I'd open the thing up (While disconnected from the mains obviously) and see if yo u can find the ROM. Its usually a large chip with 28 or more pins and will probably have a sticky label on it with a version number on it. Next see if the ROM is in an IC socket (Such that it can be removed without having to use a soldering iron). It you can find the ROM and its in a socket, then you couls call up Yamaha and ask them to mail you an updated ROM and just prise out the old one and carefully plug in the new one.
If none of what I've said makes any sense then I wouldn't bother.
Then the options you have are to ship it to Yamaha and let them do it or find a tame technician in your area to do it.

Cheers
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:42 pm

I wouldn't have a problem replacing a ROM for myself (as long as it is socketed), but I'm hoping the update can be done over MIDI.

The DD-65 relies on MIDI-accessible Flash ROM for holding song data and such - I'd hope the OS/Firmware would live on Flash ROM too and be made similarly updatable over MIDI.

Or maybe I'm being naively optimistic!
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby DGL. » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:44 pm

Lizardpoint wrote:Hi there,

I'd open the thing up (While disconnected from the mains obviously) and see if yo u can find the ROM. Its usually a large chip with 28 or more pins and will probably have a sticky label on it with a version number on it. Next see if the ROM is in an IC socket (Such that it can be removed without having to use a soldering iron). It you can find the ROM and its in a socket, then you couls call up Yamaha and ask them to mail you an updated ROM and just prise out the old one and carefully plug in the new one.
If none of what I've said makes any sense then I wouldn't bother.
Then the options you have are to ship it to Yamaha and let them do it or find a tame technician in your area to do it.


Cheers
Lizardpoint

After opening mine up I have come to the conclusion,

It's a flash ROM chip (I guess) MX T072715 combined with an m11l416256sa 4mb ram. there's also a Yamaha flash (or poss. wave rom dated 2007) chip x833210. Sound generation is taken care of by a Yamaha YMW767-VT (2002)
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:47 pm

Thanks to both of you!

DGL - are the chips socketed?
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby DGL. » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:34 pm

The Elf wrote:Thanks to both of you!

DGL - are the chips socketed?

Nope, all surface mount
See: DD65 Main Board
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:57 pm

Thanks again.

In that case I feel certain that there must be a way to get new data to the ROMs.
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:29 pm

I contacted Yamaha and they said the mod was no longer free. It was going to cost me over 100 quid to get the job done. So...

... I bought a new-ish (last year) DD-65.

Guess what?

Same problem. I suspect Yamaha never fixed it at all from what I can see - unless anyone can tell me otherwise? I can't believe I'm the only person to come across this limitation!

Wish I'd kept my DD-55.
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby TheBev » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:56 pm

Darn - I was hoping to piggyback on an easy and free solution.

Unfortunately Elf, mine are second hand and of unknown vintage, but they do (unsurprisingly) have the same problem. I always assumed there would be a simple fix, or even that I had managed to mess up the settings myself tbh, so nice to know it's not my fault for a change.

Still, Yamaha.. it's a bit rubbish selling broken stuff (ish) and charging to get it fixed.
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:38 pm



Well, to be fair to Yamaha I can't say for definite that this DD-65 is as 'new' as the owner claims (though it is in mint condition and claimed to have been bought last Xmas), but I won't be wasting any more money on trying to find yet another.

It makes me wonder if the latest firmware would even fix this problem we're having - maybe it's a problem that simply hasn't ever been rectified.

Can anyone from Yamaha (come on guys!), or another DD-65 owner tell us otherwise?
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby ef37a » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:19 am

If it is any consolation Elf I don't think there was ever any possibility of using MIDI to upgrade that chip. AFAIK, MIDI does not "go there" and talks the wrong language?

Some of "our" amps have EPROMs and MIDI but the chip needs to be removed for flashing. (The ID series are of course full blown processors and usb AIs so yes, they can have firmware updates.)

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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby BJG145 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:45 am

You've probably already seen this, but have you enabled MIDI Number Auto Select...?

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/196702/Yamaha-Dd-65.html?pa...

Just go on the function menu and turn ON the option "Ant" (when you play the pads with "Ant" ON, the dd65 sends a internal processed midi via GM)Now u can press the hi hat pedal, strikes the pad and it will send the currect (and CORRECT) information from dd65. AND REMEMBER, it will sends the MIDI of the sound played on DD65 via GM Mapping, you need to change kits or instruments to send what u like. (not the midi note anymore)


http://homerecording.com/bbs/equipment-forums/midi-mania/hi-...

If that still doesn't work, does the pedal transmit any MIDI data? If so it might be possible to do something with a MIDI mangler like Bome Translator.
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby DGL. » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:35 am

ef37a wrote:If it is any consolation Elf I don't think there was ever any possibility of using MIDI to upgrade that chip. AFAIK, MIDI does not "go there" and talks the wrong language?

Some of "our" amps have EPROMs and MIDI but the chip needs to be removed for flashing. (The ID series are of course full blown processors and usb AIs so yes, they can have firmware updates.)

Dave.

Midi can be used as a data stream for an update file via sysex, yes it's not that common anymore due to usb and whatnot, but some controllers such as, the waveidea bitstream and some of the behringer digital stuff does use midi for updates.

The DD65 itself is a bog standard Yamaha AWM2 chip (exactly the same as used in the portasound keyboards) with a bit of wave rom, some ram and some flash rom for the firmware.
Even if it can't be updated over midi it may be possible to update it in circuit either by putting an adaptor onto the chip or via a JTAG or similar contact points on the board.
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:53 am

BJG145 wrote:You've probably already seen this, but have you enabled MIDI Number Auto Select...?

Yes, I've tried this (essentially it determines whether the pad note is set by the internal voice number selected for the pad, or separately as a MIDI note of its own), but the basic problem is that the hat pad sends out the same note, regardless of whether the pedal is up or down. I can change that note freely, but I can't get the pad to send two different notes.

BJG145 wrote:If that still doesn't work, does the pedal transmit any MIDI data? If so it might be possible to do something with a MIDI mangler like Bome Translator.

It's certainly worth a thought, but I'm not sure it will work either. The hat pedal sends out a note when it it is pressed, but not when it is released, so there's nothing to let an external process know to convert a closed hat to an open one. I could maybe use the closed hat press to toggle open/closed, but it would be very difficult to play.

Really appreciate the input, guys - many thanks to you all.
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby BJG145 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:22 am

In that case, all I can think of is using a different pedal that can generate both on and off (eg a keyboard sustain pedal hooked up on another channel), and using Bome or equivalent to combine that with the drum signal to play closed or open. (Bome is very programmable and I'm sure the Pro version could do it,though I don't know about the free version. The folk on their forum would quickly tell you.)

...or flog the 65 and buy another 55...
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:39 am

BJG145 wrote:...or flog the 65 and buy another 55...
That thought has definitely occurred!

TBH at this point I suspect I'll just live with it - it's not too bad to program my hat patterns manually. Shame though.

C'est la vie...
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby BJG145 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:23 am

Apparently the fix was installed from serial number WWCOP01694 onwards.

I expect you got number WWCOP01693...

(If you have another MIDI-visible pedal connected, perhaps there might be some simpler workaround involving automating some parameter, depending what you're using for samples. For instance BFD has a continuously variable hi-hat that could be driven from a volume or expression pedal, or you could knock up a script for Kontakt.)
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:37 am

BJG145 wrote:Apparently the fix was installed from serial number WWCOP01694 onwards.

Wow! Neat bit of digging!

When I'm back on home turf I'll check the SN.

I'm really miffed about this if I've bought an old one. I deliberately bought one that claimed to be only a year old and in mint condition (and it is mint to be fair).
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:44 am

BJG145 wrote:If you have another MIDI-visible pedal connected, perhaps there might be some simpler workaround involving automating some parameter, depending what you're using for samples. For instance BFD has a continuously variable hi-hat that could be driven from a volume or expression pedal, or you could knock up a script for Kontakt.

You're right, you know. Clever dude!

I could use the sustain pedal on my mother keyboard. Then if I can get Bome (or something free) to sort out the translation before the MIDI messages reach Cubase... Hmmm...
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby BJG145 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:52 am

I just came across a shareware program called "eDrum MIDI Mapper" which looks like it's designed for this kind of thing.

http://audiomidi.chaoticbox.com/
http://audiomidi.chaoticbox.com/documentation/edrum_midi_map...
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:57 am

Strewth mate!

You've earned a curry and a pint!!
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby TheBev » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:56 am

Hmmff..

my serial comes before that BJG145, but ditto thanks for the digging. & yeah the eDrum MIDI Mapper looks like it could do the trick and save a lot of manual faff. Unfortunately I'm at work all week now, could you let us know how it goes/or not please Elf..

EDIT
Actually.. whilst looking at it quickly now I'm still not sure how this helps, can it be used to alter the internal Yamaha settings?
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby ef37a » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:57 am

DGL. wrote:
ef37a wrote:If it is any consolation Elf I don't think there was ever any possibility of using MIDI to upgrade that chip. AFAIK, MIDI does not "go there" and talks the wrong language?

Some of "our" amps have EPROMs and MIDI but the chip needs to be removed for flashing. (The ID series are of course full blown processors and usb AIs so yes, they can have firmware updates.)

Dave.

Midi can be used as a data stream for an update file via sysex, yes it's not that common anymore due to usb and whatnot, but some controllers such as, the waveidea bitstream and some of the behringer digital stuff does use midi for updates.

The DD65 itself is a bog standard Yamaha AWM2 chip (exactly the same as used in the portasound keyboards) with a bit of wave rom, some ram and some flash rom for the firmware.
Even if it can't be updated over midi it may be possible to update it in circuit either by putting an adaptor onto the chip or via a JTAG or similar contact points on the board.

Ah! The Portasounds! I bought one some years ago, an uncollected repair for a nifty. PSS 790. Mini keys but worked ok until Son played a MIDI track out of the PC on it and all the instruments were wrong except (I think?) piano.

I was told back then that I could "re-map" it but this old bottle jockey could not get head around it. Now that I am a man of greater leisure (but greater poverty!) I might have another go?

Dave.
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Re: Can I fix this problem with my drum pads?

Postby The Elf » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:41 pm

BJG145 wrote:Apparently the fix was installed from serial number WWCOP01694 onwards.

I'm well short of that number, which suggests that this 'bought last Xmas' device is over 5 years old if my research is accurate.

Oh well...
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