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Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Dinsey » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:38 pm

Hi guys, came to this forum a year ago when I started my PA Live adventure, year on and learnt a lot and its time to upgrade.

I am running 2 Electrovoice SX300's with a Allen and Heath ZED 12FX mixer, mics are SM58's, 2 condensors.

I am recording into a Zoom via the AUX 1 and AUX 2.

Looking to now invest in a EQ to refine the sound and also a Multicore (Stage Snake). DBX seems a bit pricey, may get a citronic or behringer fbq3012 , 31 band equalisers.

What I would have is the mics at the front of the hall going into the snake, then back up to the mixer, output of the mixer l and r going back down to the front of the hall via the snake to a amp then out to speakers.

Where do I connect the eq in this scenario, bearing in mind I use the onboard effects in the mixer, along with the aux 1 and 2 going into the zoom h4n.

Pics of my mixer inputs to help:
http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a503/parm_singh1/ZED_zps4813ecc0.jpg


Thanks
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:15 pm

Put the EQ either into the main L&R inserts or simply plug the L&R desk outs into the EQ inputs and the snake stage returns into the EQ outputs (I.e. the EQ goes between the mix outs and the power amps at the desk end of the snake). To do the former you'll need a couple of insert leads (2xTS jacks to 1xTRS jack) the latter just needs a couple of extra XLR signal leads, short ones make for less clutter.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby The Korff » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:24 pm

Is there a reason you're using the aux outputs for recording, rather than the stereo record outputs? If you're not using the channel aux sends to make the recording mix different to the FOH mix, I suggest not using the record outs, for a simpler life. That'd also free up the auxes for if (when??) you need some stage wedges.

Cheers!

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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby shufflebeat » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:27 pm

Using the inserts will probably mean the signal going to the EQ is not affected by the main faders so that would be favourite. Using the.main outs might mean you inadvertently push the EQ into clipping if you get enthusiastic with the levels.

I have had several Behringer EQs, one feedback destroyer that I quite like and two others that were given to me broken by people who could not bear to just bin them. Read into that what you may.

Is there a reason you're using the aux sends to record rather than just the 'rec out'?
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby shufflebeat » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:30 pm

Great minds...
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby The Korff » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:45 pm

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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Frog » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:39 pm

With advice from on here we used to use a beheringer ultragraph equaliser/feedback destroyer on the main inserts of our mackie desk and then a feedback destroyer connected inline between the aux outs and the stage monitors. Both ways worked very effectively but I think from everything I have read the insert route is probably the correct way to do it if you can.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Dinsey » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:02 pm

Hi Guys, thank you very much for the quick and effective responses.

I have always used the Aux's to the Zoom via a TRS (i think this is the name) as it was suggested to me on the forum. Think it was because the stereo out included the mixed output including the effects. Didnt think twice as it was Mike I think that suggested this. To be honest I have never done it any other way.

Just purchased a Studiomaster EQ the PBQ range, got it for a reasonable price. Will hook this up on the weekend. So the general consensus is to take the inserts, it says insert left and insert r on the mixer, which one to use? Or you saying use the line and insert on a individual channel?

Bearing in mind the eq is a 2 channel one,
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Mike Stranks » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:34 pm

Dinsey wrote:
I have always used the Aux's to the Zoom via a TRS (i think this is the name) as it was suggested to me on the forum. Think it was because the stereo out included the mixed output including the effects. Didnt think twice as it was Mike I think that suggested this. To be honest I have never done it any other way.

If you mean me... it wasn't!
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:08 pm

Use the Main L and R inserts for the graphic eq, the idea is for it to eq the main mix to best suit the speakers and the room. To eq individual mics/instruments use the channel eq.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby shufflebeat » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:04 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insert_(effects_processing)

"Most modern entry level and medium format mixers use a single TRS phone jack for both Send and Return."

" Of the mixers using this kind of dual-purpose insert jack, most are designed with Tip Send, Ring Return, though many can still be found with Ring Send, Tip Return. A very few mixers have both architectures present on the same mixer; Tip Send for input channels and Tip Return for mix groups."


Insert L/R = left and right so 2 cables between your desk and your EQ, one for each channel.

Recording from the aux sends isn't wrong, it allows you not only to construct a mix with different levels than the main mix it also gives you the opportunity to 'place' instruments in the stereo picture in a different way and to control separately the overall reverb/fx going to 'tape'.. It does require a reliable way to monitor what you're doing which isn't always easy in a live setup.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Bob Bickerton » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:29 pm

And from memory the aux 1/2 have stereo select button which is designed to transform them into a stereo Pre fader stereo send specifically designed for recording.

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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Dinsey » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:59 am

Sam Spoons wrote:Use the Main L and R inserts for the graphic eq, the idea is for it to eq the main mix to best suit the speakers and the room. To eq individual mics/instruments use the channel eq.

So agreed to use the Main L and Right INSERTS as opposed to the main outputs, so thess 2 cables going into the EQ, Left Insert going into Channel 1 input and R being Channel 2 input? Dont need to use the outputs on the EQ as I dont need a return as the TRS's carry out the function of taking it forwards and backwards, yes?

With the signal coming back do I need to change the gain on it or will it just come back into the mixer and I dont have to do anything to it?

Any benefit of using TRS to XLR to the EQ? Guess no as then wouldnt be 2 way send and return?
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby shufflebeat » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:51 am

Tip of TRS = send to EQ via TS (usually red) to input of EQ.
Output of EQ via TS (usually white) return to insert TRS ring.

Left - channel 1
Right - channel 2.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Dinsey » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:49 pm

cheers shufflebeat, I have 2 inserts on the mixer L and R, you saying you use these singley or jointly to go into the eq as ts?
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Mike Stranks » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:37 pm

Dinsey wrote:So agreed to use the Main L and Right INSERTS as opposed to the main outputs, so thess 2 cables going into the EQ, Left Insert going into Channel 1 input and R being Channel 2 input? Dont need to use the outputs on the EQ as I dont need a return as the TRS's carry out the function of taking it forwards and backwards, yes?

I think words of one syllable (figuratively!) are needed as you're not understanding what shufflebeat is saying...

To use an Insert socket you need an insert lead. This is a TRS jack which has two cables attached to it - each of which is connected to a TS jack. One of these jacks is a send TO the effects/eq unit and the other is a return FROM the unit.

So in your situation you need TWO insert leads - one for the left channel and one for the right. In each case one of your TS jacks connects to the channel EQ input and the other to the corresponding channel output.

In simple terms:

Left channel insert to left input and left output.
Right channel insert to right input and right output.

Use the advice above to determine which is the TS input plug and which the output plug.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Dinsey » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:35 pm

Thanks crystal clear, sorry it took so long, thanks for patience.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Dinsey » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:01 pm

Hi, got the unit today, hooked it all up prior to use on saturday.

There appears to be a hum coming from the unit, it can also be heard through the earphone when the unit is connected via the inserts.

Is this normal, as I have not tested with live with speakers, had music cd on and listened to the output via ear phones.

Certainly is a noticeable humming noise coming from the unit, which I suspect is being picked up by the mixer lines.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby tacitus » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:45 am

Don't use it in anger until you've sorted out properly what that hum is and you know what you're doing with the unit, Otherwise, it's just one more thing to go wrong ...

You probably need another week before you gig with it, possibly more if the hum is difficult to track down and sort out.

'Hi guys, this should really sort our sound out!'
'Why does it hum, then?'
'Er, doesn't know the words?'
'Take it back mate and teach it some, then ...'

Or something like that.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Dinsey » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:17 am

thanks for the reply tacitus.

The seller has responded saying that am I using balanced XLR's. I am using jacks as per the thread suggestions.

Either way, the hum is present in the unit even when not connected to the unit, you can hear the buzzing. Once connected I assume its just carrying on down through the wires to the mixer.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby shufflebeat » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:48 am

Dinsey wrote:
Either way, the hum is present in the unit even when not connected to the unit, you can hear the buzzing. Once connected I assume its just carrying on down through the wires to the mixer.

I was about to ask about that. Studiomaster are not the company they once were, I have an amp of theirs that shows some quite shoddy design decisions. It may be a loose connection/fastening on the power supply or something more complex. If it was me and I'd bought it off eBay I'd be sending it back. Once you've tried to fix it, it's yours (as I found out to my cost).

When you hook it up to the desk try the in/out on the EQ on way then the other, it's not always consistent as mentioned earlier.

If the hum persists, is it the same on both sides?
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:20 pm

Dinsey wrote:There appears to be a hum coming from the unit, it can also be heard through the earphone when the unit is connected via the inserts.


First, you need to determine if the unit hums on its own, or just when connected via the inserts. Power up the EQ. Connect one output via a balanced XLR cable to a line input on your mixer. Listen for mains hum. If you hear mains hum the unit is defective in some way. Check the second output in the same way. If it's clean then the unit isn't faulty and the problem is down to incompatible signal wiring or ground loop issue.

Your mixer's inserts are unbalanced. The signal processor might be fussy about how it is connected to unbalanced source/destination if it only has balanced inputs/outptus. Check the manual for the correct wiring arrangements.

Unbalanced connections are always prone to ground loops which often result in audible hum and buzz. There are various ways around this, but involve the use of additional line isolation transformers or hacking signal cable grounds (or both).

However, before trying those approaches I think the PBQ has a 'ground lift' switch on the back -- if so, try changing the position of the switch to the LIFT position. Hopefully that will cure the problem. Also, make sure the equaliser is powered from a mains socket on your power board right next to the one supplying the mixer (as this minimises the ground loop area and helps minimise the problem).

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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:27 pm

Dinsey wrote:Either way, the hum is present in the unit even when not connected to the unit, you can hear the buzzing.

Are you talking about an acoustic hum or buzz that is there whenever the unit is powered up, but not plugged into any other audio gear? If so, this is quite common and is simply the laminations in the mains transformer rattling. it's a mechanical issue, not an audio signal issue. It's down to poor transformer design and nothing you can practically do about it -- but it does not have any affect on the audio signal quality and is nothing to worry about.

Once connected I assume its just carrying on down through the wires to the mixer.

No, the mechanical laminations acoustic hum isn't related to the electrical hum you're geetting through the system. That is almost certainly as the result of a ground loop problem, as previosuly described.

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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby shufflebeat » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:35 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote: but it does not have any affect on the audio signal quality and is nothing to worry about.

Dinsey wrote:it can also be heard through the earphone when the unit is connected via the inserts.

?
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Dinsey » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:49 pm

thanks for the continued advice,

No I need another lead, I assume its a TRS stereo jack to XLR and need 2 off them for each channel. Hopefully this will stop the humming?

Can I use this with a normal microphone cable?

http://www.maplin.co.uk/1-4-stereo-plug-to-xlr-plug-43165

or

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Neutrik-NA3MP-XLR-3-P-Male-to-Jack-Male-Plug-Adaptor-00822-/370734969790?pt=UK_Musical_Cables_Leads_Connectors&hash=item565186b3be

or

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XLR-NA3FP-ada ... 5d38e36657
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:21 pm

No. Read what I said again and try the tests I described, and report on what you find.

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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Dinsey » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:22 am

Sorry for the confusion, so just use a standard mic lead with xlr to jack, don't matter if trs or phono, think its phono,ie one ring at tip and put this into insert in one channel line? Sorry for sounding dim,lol
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby shufflebeat » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:11 am

Everything you need to know to this point is in this thread. If you're having trouble now have a friend go through it with you.
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Re: Where to put a EQ and how to connect to Allen and Heath ZED 12FX

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:53 am

Dinsey wrote:thanks for the reply tacitus.

The seller has responded saying that am I using balanced XLR's. I am using jacks as per the thread suggestions.

Either way, the hum is present in the unit even when not connected to the unit, you can hear the buzzing. Once connected I assume its just carrying on down through the wires to the mixer.


Try feeding the EQ from the main outs and the amp from the EQ outs, then your connectors are all balanced. If it still hums/buzzes it's an issue with the EQ, not because you are using unbalanced leads.

Dinsey wrote:Sorry for the confusion, so just use a standard mic lead with xlr to jack, don't matter if trs or phono, think its phono,ie one ring at tip and put this into insert in one channel line? Sorry for sounding dim,lol


As Hugh and Shufflebeat say all the info is in this thread. You don't seem to have understood how inserts work (or balanced inputs and outputs for that matter), re-read all above, but for now, balanced ins and outs use three wires, +ve signal, -ve signal and ground (either on XLR or TRS jack) and send a signal one way only, inserts use the same TRS jack connectors to provide two way un-balanced connections (I.e. send and return and ground) this then needs to be split into two TS jacks to plug into the EQ (using the leads described above).
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