You are here

I don't understand why my board works this way

For performing musicians and engineers: stagecraft, engineering and gear.

I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby Arondite » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:44 am

There are a couple of things that I don't understand about my mixing board, so I figured I'd ask about it here. Just to clarify before we take things further, my pa system is wired this way.

Mic - (XLR) - Mixer - (XLR) - Driverack - (XLR) - Amplifier - (Speakons) - Speakers

My mic is a Sennheiser G3 series e135
My mixer is a Yamaha MG 24/14 FX
My Driverack is a DBX-Driverack PA+
My amplifier is dB Pro (Can't find the serial number on it)
My speakers are passive speakers from GNG (Can't find the serial number too)

1. Even though nothing is connected to the returns & sends of my EFX or Aux when I turn the EFX and Aux knob on the channel strip all the way down, the sound is cut(Similar to when the fader is pushed down). I have tried the other two mixers I have (From mackie), and none of them operate this way. So, I was curious if this is just a problem with my mixer, or are most yamaha's built this way? I have checked the manual, but I don't think the aux & efx affect sound going into Main outputs.

2. The internal effects aren't working. The problem does not lie with the board, since I got a small yamaha monitor speaker(active) plugged into the Sub outputs of the board, and tested the effects with them. It works. However, when I try to use the same effects on my main speakers, nothing happens.
Arondite
Regular
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:00 pm

Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby The Korff » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:51 am

Are you feeding the Driverack from the two XLRs marked ST OUT on the back of your mixer? It seems obvious, but I can't think of any good reason why turning down the effects send or aux outs on a channel strip would kill a channel's output from the mains...
The Korff
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1731
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:28 am
Location: The Wrong Precinct

I AM KORFF


Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby Arondite » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:06 am

Yes I am, and the funny thing is that individual knobs do not have any real effects on it. For example, if I were to turn Aux 3 and Aux 4 off, the sound still does not change, if the other aux'es and efx are on. It is only when all the other 5 knobs are turned off, and I switch the last knob off. That is when the sound is cut.
Arondite
Regular
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:00 pm

Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby Arco » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:48 am

Beside your fader you have 3 buttons marked "1-2" , "3-4" and "St". Make sure that the "St" button is pressed.
This sends the mic signal to the stereo bus. It sounds like the signal is only getting to the stereo bus via the FX and this is
why you lose signal when you turn down the Aux.
Arco
Poster
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:00 am

Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:27 pm

Your channel, group and EF return routing buttons have been mis-set. I suspect the channels aren't being sent directly to the stereo output and/or if they are routed via groups, then the group outputs aren't being routed to the stereo outputs.

Instead, the FX returns ARE being routed to the stereo outputs and so the signal path is currently only via the internal FX sends and FX processors.

Routing buttons alongside the faders are easy to press/release accidentally by inexperienced operators, and on some desks their on-off positions aren't very obvious.

I strongly suggest you read and understand the handbook for your console, paying particular attention to the block diagrams showing the signal paths at the back. You can find it HERE :


Hugh

H
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 17068
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:00 pm
Location: Worcestershire, UK

Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby Arondite » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:59 pm

I don't seem to recall not turning on the ST switch, though admittedly, I am not the sole user, so I will probably go back tomorrow to check it out. Still, this is just my understanding of things, but the EFX are routed to the EFX port, and not the internal EFX. The internal EFX will not work unless the "ON" switch on the EFX strip is not turned on. So, in this case, even if I were to get it routed via the EFX, then to the ST, since there is nothing in the EFX port, and the internal EFX is not turned on, I wouldn't get sound either way, would I?
Arondite
Regular
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:00 pm

Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby seablade » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:21 pm

Arondite wrote:I don't seem to recall not turning on the ST switch, though admittedly, I am not the sole user, so I will probably go back tomorrow to check it out. Still, this is just my understanding of things, but the EFX are routed to the EFX port, and not the internal EFX. The internal EFX will not work unless the "ON" switch on the EFX strip is not turned on. So, in this case, even if I were to get it routed via the EFX, then to the ST, since there is nothing in the EFX port, and the internal EFX is not turned on, I wouldn't get sound either way, would I?

It basically comes down to two distinct possibilities.

1. You don't understand how your console works. And it would be a LOT easier to help you through this if we were with you. In the meantime however you might try finding an experienced sound engineer that can help you with this.

2. Your console is broken. While your experienced sound engineer is helping you through 1. they would also be able to help you determine if this is the case.

I have the Yamaha MG24/12. Nothing on it acts in an unexpected way that I can recall. I am having problems following exactly what you are trying to describe on occasion above, which is why I suggest getting someone there to help you hands on.

Seablade
seablade
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1160
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:00 am

Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby Dave Rowles » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:18 pm

seablade wrote:
1. You don't understand how your console works. And it would be a LOT easier to help you through this if we were with you. In the meantime however you might try finding an experienced sound engineer that can help you with this.

+1 to this and Hugh's advice.

Grab the manual, get on the desk and "zero" it,

i.e. all buttons up, all aux sends to zero, ALL faders to zero, all EQ to neutral, all pans to neutral

Then with the system powered up, send a CD or iPod signal through a channel. Do gain, ON button down, channel fader up then move the master faders up gradually and see what happens. Only once you know you've got a clean signal going from input to output should you start messing with anything else.
User avatar
Dave Rowles
Frequent Poster
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Isle of Man

http://www.manninmusic.com Bandcamp


Sound Engineer, Music Teacher, Isle of Man


Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby Arondite » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:39 pm

The problem being that I don't have one. The closest to a experienced sound engineer I have would be my teacher, and he gave up on solving this issue long ago. I will go back and check it out, take some pictures of how it is(Which buttons are up/down), and see if it helps.
Arondite
Regular
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:00 pm

Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:52 pm

Arondite wrote:I don't seem to recall not turning on the ST switch, though admittedly, I am not the sole user, so I will probably go back tomorrow to check it out.

Before every job at the desk, the console operator should check all the settings -- mic gains, EQ settings, channel routings and so on. You don't know who used the desk previosuly or what may have been done. To step up to the desk and not check something as basic as the channel routing switches is a recipe for disaster... as you have already discovered.

So, in this case, even if I were to get it routed via the EFX, then to the ST, since there is nothing in the EFX port, and the internal EFX is not turned on, I wouldn't get sound either way, would I?

Well you did, didn't you? So you tell me what's going on! The Yamaha mixer is pretty simple as far as signal paths are concerned. There are very few ways in which the signal can get from the channel inputs to the main outputs -- as the block diagrams in the manual make very clear.

hugh
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 17068
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:00 pm
Location: Worcestershire, UK

Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:16 pm

Arondite wrote:1. Even though nothing is connected to the returns & sends of my EFX or Aux when I turn the EFX and Aux knob on the channel strip all the way down, the sound is cut(Similar to when the fader is pushed down).

The two EFX sends are internally connected to the built-in effects processors, as well as appearing on the EFX output sockets at the back of the mixer. You don't need anything connected to have a signal path from the channel EFX send buses, through the internal effects processors, and back to the group and stereo mix buses.

So, I was curious if this is just a problem with my mixer, or are most yamaha's built this way?

It's a common design for mixers with internal effects processors.

I have checked the manual, but I don't think the aux & efx affect sound going into Main outputs.

The Aux sends won't because they can't. The Aux buses are only accessible via the sockets on the back panel. However, if the channel auxes 5/6 are selected to operate as EFX 1/2 they will route signals to the internal effects processors, and the outputs from those processors can then route back to the group and stereo faders via the routing buttons on the effects channel strips.

2. The internal effects aren't working. The problem does not lie with the board...

Huh?

I got a small yamaha monitor speaker(active) plugged into the Sub outputs of the board, and tested the effects with them. It works.

Then the internal effects ARE working -- and the 'sub' outputs are simply separately buffered post-insert and pre-fade duplicates of the main XLR stereo outputs -- so if the effects can be heard on the Sub sockets, they can also be heard on the main stereo output XLRs. It has to be that way -- there are no other possibilities!

However, when I try to use the same effects on my main speakers, nothing happens.

That makes no sense at all. If you can hear the effects on the ST SUB outputs, and the main Stereo Fader is open to the 0 gain level, the effects must also be audible on the main XLR ST Outputs becuase both outputs are connected to the same singla source path! If they aren't then the desk is seriously broken!

hugh
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 17068
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:00 pm
Location: Worcestershire, UK

Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Re: I don't understand why my board works this way

Postby tacitus » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:26 pm

Either it's shafted or you'll go back to it and have one of those d'oh moments and realise you've been doing something stupid that you hadn't already twigged. In either case, finding or downloading the manual and having a good go at all the controls should be a major help. Just don't assume anything - check it out knob by knob against what it says in the book.
tacitus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 757
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:00 am


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests