You are here

Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

For performing musicians and engineers: stagecraft, engineering and gear.

Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby WiredUp » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:44 pm

Hi guys, I have some Yamaha AX15 Speakers See Here and they sound great. They are designed to work with my Yamaha emx512 PA (yamaha recommends them) but the thing is they are just too big and heavy for my liking.
The specs are:

Trapezoidal bass reflex cabinet.
1 x 1/4" phone jack, and 1 x Neutrick Speakon NL4MP.
1" voice coil compression driver.
15" bass.
800W max output.
35mm pole mount socket.
65Hz-20KHz frequency response.
98dB SPL [email]1W@1m.[/email]
8 ohms nominal impedance.
Carpet covering.
Metal handle.
Weight: 21.5 Kg.
Size(WxHxL): 485 x 668 x 375 mm.

So what I'm wondering is could there be a smaller lighter speaker than can delivery a similar sound?
I was looking at HK Audio PR:0 8 See Here
On the specs for frequency response it says:

Frequency response +/- 3dB: 89Hz to 19kHz
Frequency response -10 dB: 63 Hz - 19 kHz

I assume the top is the tweeter and bottom the bass driver?
But what I don't understand is on their next model up, the pr:o 10 which has a 10" bass driver I assume, it says it only goes down to 78hz, yet its a bigger speaker! I don't understand.
See Here
The same is true of the next size up the pr:0 12.

Apart from that does anyone have any other speaker suggestions? This is for an Acoustic Band and although my PA can do 500w a side and the Yamaha speakers can handle it I'll never need that much juice with so many miced instruments.
WiredUp
Regular
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:55 pm

By definition, smaller speakers will deliver less bass. However the better smaller active boxes (Yamaha DXR10s etc) can produce decent bass from a small box with their DSP systems. It all depends how loud you need to go (big boxes are going to give louder bass, you can't cheat the laws of physics).
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3985
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Manchester UK

Mr G J Guitarist


Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby Mike Stranks » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:44 am

+1 for DXRs... I have the DXR8s... just don't expect your trouser-legs to flap in the breeze... :)
User avatar
Mike Stranks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4501
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Cirencester, UK

 


Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby WiredUp » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:51 pm

DXR8 Look good but do they make a passive version?
WiredUp
Regular
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby OneEng » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:17 pm

WiredUp wrote:DXR8 Look good but do they make a passive version?

No, but what advantage would the passive version have for you?

Modern powered speakers aren't just an amp in a box with a speaker. They are a comprehensive speaker management system custom setup by the engineers who designed the speaker.

Think of it as having a DriveRack PA, a power amp, and your speaker all in one box.

It is unlikely in the extreme that most of us would be able to match the sound quality of a powered speaker with external tools.

The reason the DXR8 can sound so full is that the processing inside the box has been setup to maximize the output of the speaker. It is also fully protected with internal limiting and thermal management to prevent damage to the speaker.
User avatar
OneEng
Regular
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:00 pm

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby WiredUp » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:30 pm

OneEng wrote:
WiredUp wrote:DXR8 Look good but do they make a passive version?

No, but what advantage would the passive version have for you?

Modern powered speakers aren't just an amp in a box with a speaker. They are a comprehensive speaker management system custom setup by the engineers who designed the speaker.

Think of it as having a DriveRack PA, a power amp, and your speaker all in one box.

It is unlikely in the extreme that most of us would be able to match the sound quality of a powered speaker with external tools.

The reason the DXR8 can sound so full is that the processing inside the box has been setup to maximize the output of the speaker. It is also fully protected with internal limiting and thermal management to prevent damage to the speaker.

Ok that makes sense but I already have a 500/500 watt PA to drive the speakers. Powered speakers are going to be a lot more costly plus running power to them is a hassle. Somebody must make a passive speaker that can go down to 65hz and not be in a huge heavy box.
WiredUp
Regular
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby OneEng » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:31 pm

WiredUp wrote:
OneEng wrote:
WiredUp wrote:DXR8 Look good but do they make a passive version?

No, but what advantage would the passive version have for you?

Modern powered speakers aren't just an amp in a box with a speaker. They are a comprehensive speaker management system custom setup by the engineers who designed the speaker.

Think of it as having a DriveRack PA, a power amp, and your speaker all in one box.

It is unlikely in the extreme that most of us would be able to match the sound quality of a powered speaker with external tools.

The reason the DXR8 can sound so full is that the processing inside the box has been setup to maximize the output of the speaker. It is also fully protected with internal limiting and thermal management to prevent damage to the speaker.

Ok that makes sense but I already have a 500/500 watt PA to drive the speakers. Powered speakers are going to be a lot more costly plus running power to them is a hassle. Somebody must make a passive speaker that can go down to 65hz and not be in a huge heavy box.

I see. What is your budget?
User avatar
OneEng
Regular
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:00 pm

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby Guy Johnson » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:36 pm

I've been impressed by the bass response of my 12 in passive monitors that can be PA speakers too. I don't know what your budget is, but I like these boxes ... been using them as mostly monitors and sometimes PA, for a few years now. They can take a lot of power, and sound good.

Logic LM12

Image
User avatar
Guy Johnson
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1339
Joined: Thu May 01, 2003 11:00 pm
Location: North Pembrokeshire

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:04 pm

The problem you have is that a small speaker is less efficient in the bass than a larger speaker so to get down to 65 Hz within the -10 or -3 dB spec you have to limit the higher frequencies so that the low frequency falls within the -10 dB band. The speakers you've been looking at will go down to 65 Hz, they just won't produce the same levels of 65 Hz than the bigger speakers. I'm guessing (sorry, deducing :blush:) here but I suspect that the quicker bass roll of in the bigger speakers you linked to may be to do with maximising the SPL available so they can claim them to be louder than the competition.

The answer is to take your PA to your nearest dealer who has decent demo facilities and try some smaller speakers alongside your present Yamahas to see if they do the business for you (I'd also audition an appropriate active box just to satisfy yourself that they won't do the job better than the passives.... ignore this if you definitely can't afford actives as once you've heard them you'll want them) :headbang:
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3985
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Manchester UK

Mr G J Guitarist


Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby OneEng » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:26 am

Sam Spoons wrote:The problem you have is that a small speaker is less efficient in the bass than a larger speaker so to get down to 65 Hz within the -10 or -3 dB spec you have to limit the higher frequencies so that the low frequency falls within the -10 dB band. The speakers you've been looking at will go down to 65 Hz, they just won't produce the same levels of 65 Hz than the bigger speakers. I'm guessing (sorry, deducing :blush:) here but I suspect that the quicker bass roll of in the bigger speakers you linked to may be to do with maximising the SPL available so they can claim them to be louder than the competition.

The answer is to take your PA to your nearest dealer who has decent demo facilities and try some smaller speakers alongside your present Yamahas to see if they do the business for you (I'd also audition an appropriate active box just to satisfy yourself that they won't do the job better than the passives.... ignore this if you definitely can't afford actives as once you've heard them you'll want them) :headbang:

Sam pretty much nailed it. +1 :)
User avatar
OneEng
Regular
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:00 pm

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby dickiefunk » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:20 pm

I would definitely try to audition speakers. I'm glad I did when I recently upgraded my system!!

The new Yamaha DXR and DSR speakers are very impressive. I have the DXR15's and they have amazing bass for a pair of pole mounted full range speakers. The Yamaha DXR12's or DSR12's would definitely be worth listening to! I've also heard good things about the RCF HD12a's and FBT ProMaxx 12a's but have not tried them personally. I'm not sure that I would go smaller than a 12" speaker if you want bass.
User avatar
dickiefunk
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1648
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Cornwall, UK

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:27 am

I was just re-reading the first post here, Weight is an issue for the OP and I was concerned that decent actives may still be a bit heavy. His current speakers weigh 21.5 kg, Yamaha DXR10 weighs only 14.6kg and are much smaller so no issue there.

I listened to several 10 and 12" actives before settling on QSC K12 for tops and Yamaha DXR10s for monitors/small rig. I commented on most of them in this thread http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showf ... ost1052836
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3985
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Manchester UK

Mr G J Guitarist


Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby dickiefunk » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:31 am

The fbt promaxx 12a weighs 15.1kg and the rcf hd12a weighs 16.7kg. I would consider this extremely light for any speaker regardless of whether it's passive or active. One of the higher end rigs I've used has passive 12" tops that weigh 48kg each!!!
User avatar
dickiefunk
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1648
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Cornwall, UK

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby WiredUp » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:44 am

Thanks for all the replies guys, I think I'm starting to get the jist of it. Lots to research now :)
WiredUp
Regular
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:01 pm

Another small piece of info, your amp only gives 350 watts max into 8 ohms (as your present speakers are rated) so that should give a max spl of around 123dB.

If you decide to stick with your mixer/amp remember it has speaker protection built in for the Concert Club range speakers so you may like to consider a pair of BR12M's (or BR10's though they are not as versatile as they don't have an angled back for monitor duties) which you could use for main FOH on smaller gigs or monitors while using the 15s for FOH on bigger gigs. The mixer allows you to assign the power amps to either stereo FOH or mono FOH and monitors, you'd gain a few extra watts running two speakers on each output because the load impedance comes down to 4 ohms.
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3985
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Manchester UK

Mr G J Guitarist


Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby WiredUp » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:31 pm

Thanks Sam, you've given me lots to think about and actually today I was thinking the powered speaker option might be the way to go. I have a spirit FX8 sitting around doing nothing so maybe using that and the powered speakers rather than the Yammy box might be a smarter move, certainly a lot more channels on the FX8 and tape outs too for recording. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
WiredUp
Regular
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:09 pm

Give my comments on the other thread (regarding specific speakers) a read, and also others opinions in the same thread, I gave some a very brief listen, relying on first impressions.

If you have a small budget I'd say you must listen to the Alto Truesonic range, they are remarkably good for the price and extremely light, I found myself able to afford better and bought a couple of Yamaha DXR10s (at twice the price) but I also have a TS110A and will probably buy at least one more later in the year.

Definitely listen and buy what you like the sound of, all the speakers discussed on here are good sounding but all are different and while one will probably suit your sound better than the others non will disappoint.

BTW the FX8 is a nice desk, I have been a Soundcraft fan for years (though I don't own one at present). You could end up with a very nice, flexible system here.

Good luck
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3985
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Manchester UK

Mr G J Guitarist


Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby OneEng » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:23 pm

@WiredUp,

What kind of music are you doing? What size of crowd?
User avatar
OneEng
Regular
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:00 pm

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby WiredUp » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:43 am

OneEng wrote:@WiredUp,

What kind of music are you doing? What size of crowd?

Acoustic music, Acoustic Guitar, Flute, Bodhran, etc.
I have an acoustic amp, mini mixer for small gigs but I'd say usual crowd would be under 100.
Bigger venues have their own PA's so for me its about clarity and not breaking my back. I love the sound of the Yammy's but I struggle to move them and putting them on the poles.

The DXR10's seem about the right weight.
WiredUp
Regular
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Smaller PA speaker with good bass?

Postby OneEng » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:51 pm

WiredUp wrote:
OneEng wrote:@WiredUp,

What kind of music are you doing? What size of crowd?


Acoustic music, Acoustic Guitar, Flute, Bodhran, etc.
I have an acoustic amp, mini mixer for small gigs but I'd say usual crowd would be under 100.
Bigger venues have their own PA's so for me its about clarity and not breaking my back. I love the sound of the Yammy's but I struggle to move them and putting them on the poles.

The DXR10's seem about the right weight.


I would go give the DXR12 and DXR10 a listen (and a lift) to see which one fits your needs best. The trade-off is going to be weight vs. bottom.

I am looking forward to hearing what you end up with ;)

Oh, and the FX8 is a wonderful little mixer. I think this is definitely your best bet.
User avatar
OneEng
Regular
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:00 pm


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest