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Live Sound Setup Questions

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Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby daman8987 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:11 am

Hello, I am new to live sound as I am just starting up a band and I have some questions on the setup we're looking at. Basically I just need to know if it will work, and if not what I can do to make it work. We are going to get the following equipment.:
2x JBL mp225 pa mains
1x Mackie 408M Powered Mixer (2x250 watts) (Main Mixer)
2x Behringer EUROLIVE VQ1800D 18" Active Subwoofer
1x Behringer XENYX 1002B 5-Channel Compact Mixer (Submixer for drums)
2x Gemsound TR-100 Monitors

Will this setup be able to run? Would we need a crossover? What would be the best crossover to get if we do need one? IF we don't need one how would we hook this all up?

Thank you for taking the time to read this post and thanks in advanced to any help given.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby The Korff » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:15 am

I think you'd be able to make most of that work, but it's a slightly confused approach...

There are many ways to skin the live-sound cat, but ordinarily you'd choose between either an active-speaker or passive-speaker setup — and you've got a slightly odd mix of both (passive mains and monitors, active subs).

If you went for an active-speaker setup, you could do without a powered mixer and go for a line-level one instead. But if you did want to go the passive-speaker route, you'd probably need a bit more oomph than that 250W-per-channel Mackie one. Oh, and you'd also need some form of amplification for the monitors you've chosen.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby shufflebeat » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:16 am

First thing that jumps out is that your amp (I have the 808s which is out on loan at the minute - great little mixer/amp) is extremely underpowered for those main speakers. The Mackie is 250w p/c but that's into 2ohms, yours are 4ohms if I understand properly so the Mackie will be putting much less than 200w into those.

You will be tempted to overdrive the amp to get things heard. That will, maybe counterintuitively, put your system under greater strain than having an appropriate amp driven properly.

I would suggest getting a decent power amp, the Beringer iNuke amps are well spoken of by some folks here, and a mixer with enough channels for you to ditch the submixer.

Hear your JBLs working properly, then decide whether you need the subs at all.

[Edit after seeing Korff's post]

I have no problem with the active/passive mix but it does need doing properly.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby daman8987 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:15 pm

shufflebeat wrote:First thing that jumps out is that your amp (I have the 808s which is out on loan at the minute - great little mixer/amp) is extremely underpowered for those main speakers. The Mackie is 250w p/c but that's into 2ohms, yours are 4ohms if I understand properly so the Mackie will be putting much less than 200w into those.

You will be tempted to overdrive the amp to get things heard. That will, maybe counterintuitively, put your system under greater strain than having an appropriate amp driven properly.

I would suggest getting a decent power amp, the Beringer iNuke amps are well spoken of by some folks here, and a mixer with enough channels for you to ditch the submixer.

Hear your JBLs working properly, then decide whether you need the subs at all.

[Edit after seeing Korff's post]

I have no problem with the active/passive mix but it does need doing properly.

The Korff wrote:I think you'd be able to make most of that work, but it's a slightly confused approach...

There are many ways to skin the live-sound cat, but ordinarily you'd choose between either an active-speaker or passive-speaker setup — and you've got a slightly odd mix of both (passive mains and monitors, active subs).

If you went for an active-speaker setup, you could do without a powered mixer and go for a line-level one instead. But if you did want to go the passive-speaker route, you'd probably need a bit more oomph than that 250W-per-channel Mackie one. Oh, and you'd also need some form of amplification for the monitors you've chosen.

The JBL speakers, monitors, and mixer come in a package for $600 that we are buying. I would like to get a new mixer. I was thinking the Behringer Europower PMP6000. Would this power the two JBLs, the monitors, and the subs? We are a three piece band that keeps the bass as loud or just under the guitar which is why we need subs.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby daman8987 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:27 pm

So if we get a new mixer would the Behringer Europwer PMP6000 power the subs, JBL speakers, and monitors? The speakers, monitors, and Mackie mixer were given to us. We have about $600 to spend on a mixer as long as we can take out the submixer.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby shufflebeat » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:04 pm

I would hesitate to recommend anything Behringer except the amps mentioned which I have had limited experience of but have heard knowledgeable others speak highly of, and the digital mixers which might be beyond your current budget/needs.

In my opinion no other Behringer gear is worth buying, particularly anything with lots of knobs and switches like a mixing desk, those are the first things to break - apart from the LEDs.

If it were me I would buy maybe a small Yamaha desk and start saving for an A&H or one of the very smart digi-desks now on the market. One of the more powerful iNuke amps would drive your speakers with lots of lovely headroom with a smaller one for the mons.

Does your bass player have an amp?
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby daman8987 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:07 pm

Yes. We are gonna run a line out for his amp and mic my guitar amp. We probably won't get subs as I did not realize the JBL speakers pretty much can take care of that. All the reviews on the behringer mixer are pretty good and I was recommended it by a friend. So if we do get that one, it would power the passive monitors, and the JBL speakers, correct?
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby blinddrew » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:11 pm

Just going to disagree with Shufflebeat on the behringer mixers front, I've had three xenyx models and they've all been fine. One's second hand, one's been well looked after but the other did the business in an open mic for quite a while and handled all kinds of abuse without any problems. YMMV of course... ;)
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby OK1 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:49 am

Let's break this down, to examine the principles and features, which are probably the most important reasons for decision making rather than price alone.

1. Mixer

From a reliability perspective, and features - I would suggest you take a look at a digital mixer. Behringer makes some of the best entry level ones.

Advantage, you get wonderful effects like compressors, limiters and more flexibility for more channels of auxillary/sends which give you great options for more involved monitor mixes.

Especially for live performances, compressors will make a noticeable difference to the quality of the overall sound, if used judiciously.

You decide which best fits your bill by the number of ins and outs needed.

I do not think the cost savings of an analog mixer, outweigh the benefits that having on-board digital effects to give you a more polished sound. Simple things like a limiter on the master outs, and graphic/parametric eq's on most channels/outs can take your sonic quality to a much higher standard of polish than an analog mixer without these features.

If you choose a digital mixer, in general you exclude the powered mixer, as almost all digital mixers are not integrated with a Power Amp.

Digital mixers give you features like saving setups, so performances can be more consistent, from one event to another.

You also get remote mixing opportunities using laptops, ipads or android devices, which open up lots of other possibilities - less cabling, ability to mix from the sweetspot locations in the audience, rather than having to mix from a specific location, which may not be the ideal listening position, that reflects what the audience is hearing.

Ultimately - performers could, if you made this option available to them, manage their own monitor mixes.

2. Speakers.

For a medium/startup set, for the most effective match, I suggest the exclusive use of active speakers/monitors. These active monitors typically have active internal crossovers, rather than passive crossovers in non powered/non active speakers. Active crossovers should give you a somewhat more accurate sound.

Active speakers - free you from the risks of mismatch between dedicated power amps and passive speakers, which could either underpower(with amplifier overload) or .risk damage(speaker overload), with power amps that are less or more than adequate for your passive speaker.

Active speakers - in my opinion , especially with their in built eq's, crossovers and multitude of correction features, tend to sound more accurate than passive options with amps, at about the same price.

Active speakers - spare you the difficulties of learning how to combine amps and non powered speakers in serial or parallel configs.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:15 am

I agree about digital mixers, and own three Behringers (and a Mackie DL1608). There is a steeper learning curve with digital but if you're reasonably 'tech savvay' you shouldn't find it too much (if not, however, you should probably stick with analogue ;) ). If you go digital your $600 should get you a Behringer XR16 or a maybe Mackie DL1608 (my first and still most used digital mixer and probably the easiest to learn). Either will allow you to run a full band and up to 6 separate monitor mixes.

Also fully in agreement regarding powered speakers and they usually end up slightly cheaper than passives plus a suitable amp. Budget end Alto Truesonic TS range are very good for the money, I have a couple of TS110A usually used for extra monitors. The beauty of actives is they are more or less interchangeable so if you lose a FOH box you can pinch a monitor and the show goes on.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby shufflebeat » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:43 am

@ blinddrew: all disagreement welcome (well, most).

There are many happy Behringer users who would attest to their usefulness, just as there are many happy Alto users [rant] who have never had a speaker pack up half way through a gig only to be told it's cheaper to throw it away and buy another [/rant]. Reliability has been traded away against cost of production and the people who get caught up in the consequences are part of the business model. I can't really afford to be in that demographic again. Once you have experienced that feeling it's difficult either to recommend B kit (or any of the many copies it has spawned, some with previously trusted brand names) or to watch others do the same without some qualification.

All my own opinion, as previously stated, but experience informed.

This is a great time to be looking for a second hand analogue mixer as other folks go digital, take the time to see what's around.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby shufflebeat » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:02 am

BTW, I would also suggest looking at the cheaper digital mixers but am recently rediscovering the delights of passive speakers - cabling, weight, reliability, ease of repair and the number of great boxes that have been part-exchanged for actives.

We've had three powered speakers pack up on us in the last 6 months:

Ye olde Laney wedge - output transistor replaced by regular guy
Dynacord A12 - sent back to Germany under warranty which would not have been possible one week later
Alto ts112a - "fixed" by regular guy (£80), "fixed" by shop recommended guy (£95), now waiting to be dumped.

In the same time period, # of problems with passive sx300s (x6) - zero.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby blinddrew » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:43 am

shufflebeat wrote:I can't really afford to be in that demographic again. Once you have experienced that feeling it's difficult either to recommend B kit (or any of the many copies it has spawned, some with previously trusted brand names) or to watch others do the same without some qualification.
This I understand perfectly, had a couple of bits of kit give out mid gig in the past. :¬(
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby daman8987 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:41 pm

We already have the JBL speakers. Could we buy a behringer xr18 and a power amp? We're not going to get the subs as the jbls have them.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:49 pm

Yes. :thumbup:

If you don't have monitors, consider actives for that role. The XR18 only gives you two extra channels over the XR16 for significantly more money. If you can use the other benefits, mainly multitrack recording, the extra cost may be worth it but look at the specs carefully, there's no point paying for features you don't need now or in the foreseeable future.

BTW, strictly the JBLs don't have subs built in but for all practical purposes that fact is irrelevant :D
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby daman8987 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:24 pm

We need the xlr inputs. And the recording. Thanks for the advice though. We're in high school trying to learn about all this stuff so all the help is really appreciated. We wanna get the XR18 and the Behringer iNuke NU4-6000.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby shufflebeat » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:33 am

I would defer to Mr Spoons on the details of the various Behringer digi-mixers but in general I think you're on to something.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby ef37a » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:47 am

Just an observation regarding power amplifiers.

The Class D amplifier seems to be sweeping all before it in active monitors? I dare say they will soon make great inroads into PA speakers ?
The problem is, class D electronics is harder to fix than 'AB' and will probably use special, hard to source ICs (which might well have their codes scratched out!) .

I would therefore like to see C D amps as replaceable 'blocks' and plug in spares made readily available. ....Ooooo! Just see'd a PIG fly past!

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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby Folderol » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:56 am

ef37a wrote:Just an observation regarding power amplifiers.

I would therefore like to see C D amps as replaceable 'blocks' and plug in spares made readily available. ....Ooooo! Just see'd a PIG fly past!

Dave.

Hmm. I can see the benefit for users, but it then becomes yet another throw-away, unfixable item :(
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby ef37a » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:10 am

Folderol wrote:
ef37a wrote:Just an observation regarding power amplifiers.

I would therefore like to see C D amps as replaceable 'blocks' and plug in spares made readily available. ....Ooooo! Just see'd a PIG fly past!

Dave.

Hmm. I can see the benefit for users, but it then becomes yet another throw-away, unfixable item :(

Better than landfilling the whole speaker/mixer Will because you can't get the bits! In any case, what is wrong with a 'service replacement'? You ship the old module back to the mnfctrs and get a fixed one with a 90day say warranty. SMT makes ad hoc repair of stuff very tricky now and I suspect class D amps are FULL that ****!

This world has GOT to move to repair wherever possible and that has to start with legislation.

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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby shufflebeat » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:41 am

This world has GOT to move to repair wherever possible...

+101

Don't know/care how that will be achieved.
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:49 pm

Yup, I hate throwing stuff away just because it can't be fixed economically. :headbang:
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Re: Live Sound Setup Questions

Postby James Perrett » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:19 pm

ef37a wrote:
I would therefore like to see C D amps as replaceable 'blocks' and plug in spares made readily available. ....Ooooo! Just see'd a PIG fly past!

Dave.

That's pretty much what I did when I replaced the amp modules in my old Quad with Hypex class D modules. Only problem with cheap active speakers is that the power supply is probably on the same board (although Hypex have an answer for that too).
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