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Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

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Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:13 pm

I have a simple little setup I use for my dance classes.

Ipod into Alto ZMX862 mixer into Alto TS115 Active PA

Ipod is full volume. Mixer gain on Ipod channel is half way. Mixer Level on iPoid channel is half to 3/4. Alto PA volume is 1/2

3 events in a row the top end has just cut out making the sound very muffled. EQ settings on the mixer are all at 50%. And when the top end cuts out I try to add more treble via mixer but it makes virtually no difference.

The kit just plays on its own once setup. I don't change or modify anything throughout the night.

Initially i used my Samsung Galaxy phone as the sound source but ditched it because I thought that might have been the problem, hence now the iPod..but the issue still exists so it seems mixer of PA related

I'm playing the setup again at home today to see if the issue will reproduce but so far no.

Any ideas I could possible look into and work with just now?
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:31 pm

ps - will also add that during one episode of this occurrence I transffered the iPod input jacks on the mixer from one channel to the other. discreetly as possible moving one then the other into another mixer channel. The issue remained
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby Dan LB » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:54 pm

Sounds like an issue with the speaker to me. It could be the crossover, the HF amp, or the HF driver.

There are a few Alto TS series users on here that might be able to give more info



PS: it seems to me that you don't need the mixer in the chain either - just plug the iPod straight into the speaker's inputs.
The problem still sounds like it's associated with the TS115 though.

HTH
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:48 pm

Agreed. It's definitely a speaker issue.

If you can borrow a different powered speaker, that would prove the point.

As to why it's happening... it could be many different things, from overload or over-heat protection (Although that would normally kill everything, not just the high-end), to a duff treble driver cutting out, or a fault in the crossover or the HF power amp.

Either way, the speaker will need attention from a repair centre.

H
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:53 pm

Just a long shot...

... you're sure the connecting cables are all good? (Not unknown for a cable/connector to do funny thing intermittently.)
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby mick.n » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:10 pm

Is this a problem that's only recently started or has it always been there with this cab?

I have the same cab that i use for a keyboard monitor & i find if i push it too hard the HF protection comes in cutting the top end (untill i turn things down a touch). It's always done this since i bought it.
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:50 pm

mick.n wrote:Is this a problem that's only recently started or has it always been there with this cab?

I have the same cab that i use for a keyboard monitor & i find if i push it too hard the HF protection comes in cutting the top end (untill i turn things down a touch). It's always done this since i bought it.

Interesting.... I have a set of powered speakers (not Alto) but at the budget end of the market where it is VERY easy to overload/overdrive the front-end... they don't like normal pro-level (+4) at all and quack like a duck. Maybe this is a similar issue with a sensitive front-end?

Or not! :D
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:28 pm

Thanks Guys,

I just went ahead and bought a replacement Tweeter. Will see how that goes. Hopefully it isn't anything else :-)

ps forgot to mention I use a microphone too, hence the need for mixer
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:18 am

mick.n wrote:Is this a problem that's only recently started or has it always been there with this cab?

I have the same cab that i use for a keyboard monitor & i find if i push it too hard the HF protection comes in cutting the top end (untill i turn things down a touch). It's always done this since i bought it.

When you turn it down does the protection immediately lift?

I could try that
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby ef37a » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:55 am

I am with Hugh, speaker problem.

I would be very surprised however if it was the actual tweeter? Not unknown for speakers to go O/C under stress but VERY unusual for them to repair themselves!

I see there is a red O/load LED on the control panel, does that ever blink?

Lastly I would like to say, if that speaker is actually performing to spec' and the cutting out really is a normal thermal protection device cutting in...You are ALL going to go deaf!

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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:50 am

Just played there the ipod and mixer at FULL on every level and the speaker didn't flinch, no LED flicker
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby Tim Gillett » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:52 am

It can be the speaker is pointing away from the user, so not being heard, and is quietly destroying itself. Clipping of course is a great destroyer of tweeters.
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:18 am

nvisibl wrote:I just went ahead and bought a replacement Tweeter. Will see how that goes. Hopefully it isn't anything else :-)

I'd be quite surprised if it is a faulty tweeter -- as Dave said, it's not unusual for tweeters to blow, but once broken they don't generally mend themselves afterwards!

I suspect this is an overloading problem. One speaker like this (or even two) in a large dance class may well not be up to generating the volume you need, and if you are continually trying to make it go louder than it is capable of going then the overload-protection is likely to cut in on a regular basis.

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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:23 am

It's strange why it's just been occurring lately. I've had the speaker for over 1 year and it;s seen many plays in different venues with the same to similar sonic input.
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:27 am

I'd be interested to find out how long the overload protection kicks in for when triggered, so that if it does happen again, and if it is in fact this, then I can decrease levels immediately and hopefully maintain the sound with minimal affect
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:29 am

otherwise i'm very nervous about playing again until i'm sure the issue is resolved
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby ef37a » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:37 am

nvisibl wrote:It's strange why it's just been occurring lately. I've had the speaker for over 1 year and it;s seen many plays in different venues with the same to similar sonic input.

Ah! You've GONE deaf.

But seriously there was a thing in the trade called the "day after the day after New year's Eve effect" People had home music systems that worked fine for years until that dreaded party. As the night wore on the volume was crept up until..Pop! The overheated transistors failed. We techs saw the kit on the day.........!

I suspect things have gotten just a little bit more fun aka manic? It takes a lot of extra power to make a rather small difference in perceived sound levels. Has your cliental become a wee bit older?

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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:04 am

I don't know but the length of this thread is putting years on me ! : :lol:

I'm going to test the overload. By playing the same mix as saw the issue, here at home at venue levels from ipod and mixer.

I'm not sure thought If I keep the speaker volumes lowered if that will be an appropriate test. Would it still cut out in relation to the input, or does the speaker volume need to up too. As you can see i['m barely even noob status
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:15 am

If it's an over-temperature /driver protection problem, then the listening volume will be a key factor -- as might the amount of time it's been running. Obviously, the longer it's on, the higher the ambient temperature, and the volume that it's working at will all contribute to heating the amplifier's output devices, and if they exceed a set temperature threshold the protection circuitry will cut in.

Because commercial music is mastered and generally peak-normalised, the average power level at which the speaker is working will typically be consistently high, exacerbating the over-temp problem.

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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby James Perrett » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:20 am

nvisibl wrote:I'd be interested to find out how long the overload protection kicks in for when triggered, so that if it does happen again, and if it is in fact this, then I can decrease levels immediately and hopefully maintain the sound with minimal affect

Some systems require the power to be switched off before they will reset.
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby ef37a » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:30 am

Just another thought? We have had some pretty hot days lately?

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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:58 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:If it's an over-temperature /driver protection problem, then the listening volume will be a key factor -- as might the amount of time it's been running. Obviously, the longer it's on, the higher the ambient temperature, and the volume that it's working at will all contribute to heating the amplifier's output devices, and if they exceed a set temperature threshold the protection circuitry will cut in.

Because commercial music is mastered and generally peak-normalised, the average power level at which the speaker is working will typically be consistently high, exacerbating the over-temp problem.

H


Thanks
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby nvisibl » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:04 am

Thanks guys, taking it all in. It could be temperature/level related.

My mate is going to help put my mixes through ableton prior to the gigs to clean up any peaking etc..

If it happens again i think i'll just need to lower the levels and hope that it kicks back in quickly

The speaker doesn't need a switch - off as when its done it before its just came back in again in its own time. But would still be good to find out from anyone if they know how long the protection actually stays for when triggered
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby Mike Stranks » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:21 am

nvisibl wrote:But would still be good to find out from anyone if they know how long the protection actually stays for when triggered

Not being facetious but it depends on how long it takes to cool down to below it's tipping-point.

So ambient temp and ventilation will play a part...
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Re: Annoying Issue of Top End Disapearing

Postby ef37a » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:25 am

Mike Stranks wrote:
nvisibl wrote:But would still be good to find out from anyone if they know how long the protection actually stays for when triggered

Not being facetious but it depends on how long it takes to cool down to below it's tipping-point.

So ambient temp and ventilation will play a part...

Yup, if you can find a small fan and aim it at the control panel/heatsink that could fix its wagon for good!

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