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Rental leader in this month's SOS

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Rental leader in this month's SOS

Postby Wease » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:03 pm

An interesting start to a discussion on rental hardware
For info....schools already have access to rental solutions, http://www.jigsaw24.com/ being an example of a company that offers such a service to education establishments
Although I think that volume (i.e. Amount of hardware required) is probably a deciding factor in making such a process financially viable to a company...and schools are tied into a lengthy contract when taking up such an offer.

fx rentals also offer rental programmes on hardware (obviously).... so there's a precedent set in music production for a rental model.

However, it always seems way more expensive to rent hardware than to buy in the long run, especially when not in a one-off situation...so I wonder if economically this would be a viable option for individual users.

Paul talks about the modifications one can make in windows based machines and the lack of such opportunities for "fruity" based machines, however, I doubt any rental company would allow a user to modify their machines....and the fruity ones charge a lot for their hardware, but relatively little for their software (Logic Pro being £149, over 1/2 the price of similar competitiors) so I wonder if this rental model would actually be viable in the current computer climate.

I suppose one has to wait and see how effective the software rental model (slate,waves etc etc) is before we'd see companies ready to long term rent hardware....and then there's the question of ownership of output created on rented machines....

Quite an interesting topic!
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Re: Rent Or Buy leader in May's SOS

Postby Forum Admin » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:41 pm

If folks haven't read Paul White's Rent Or Buy leader yet, it's here:
http://www.soundonsound.com/people/rent-or-buy

I believe Synchro Arts offer a rental scheme for ReVoice Pro, after which period you own the software license.

There are various companies already offering leasing schemes for Apple hardware, some with and some without 'balloon' payments at the end of the elected period (Ts & Cs apply).
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Re: Rental leader in this months SOS

Postby Forum Admin » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:43 pm

Wease wrote:...and then there's the question of ownership of output created on rented machines....

Why would that be a factor for hardware? :?:
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Re: Rental leader in this months SOS

Postby Wease » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:15 pm

Forum Admin wrote:
Wease wrote:...and then there's the question of ownership of output created on rented machines....

Why would that be a factor for hardware? :?:

I only relate to what I was told at university.....that any output we as students or lecturers created on university equipment was owned by the university and couldn't be commercially used by the student/lecturer

This came to head when a lecturer and student devised a mat for a dancer to trigger sounds whilst dancing.....they were told by the then dean that the project 'belonged' to the university because they used uni equipment to create it......I gigged (as a separate act) with said dancer and team...and they had to declare and hand over their proceeds

I'm just wondering if a rental company rented hardware (and the subsequent operating systems and creating software which would have to come from the rental company I suppose, cause they wouldn't let you install you own software on the machine I reckon) would also claim ownership of materials created on their machines.....or if you'd have to sign something to transfer intellectual ownership to you as the user

This was in the early 90's......don't know if laws have changed since then???? Or would you be covered under the same sort of arrangement one would have with a commercial studio....where you own the rights to the material created on their equipment


I don't honestly know.....but I'd want to find out before I rented any equipment, especially hardware/software combinations like computers...

Interesting tho
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Re: Rental leader in this month's SOS

Postby James Perrett » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:36 pm

Universities and other similar establishments often have special deals with hardware and software manufacturers which give them cheap deals provided the gear is only used for educational purposes.

Nowadays they also have commercial licencing departments who make their living doing deals to exploit the intellectual property developed at the university.

However, equipment rental is a well established business model and there are plenty of finance companies willing to act as middle men if the manufacturers don't want to go down that route. I've just done a quick search to find that you can rent a Macbook Pro from around 13 pounds a week for a 3 year contract with the option to upgrade to a newer model when it is 2 years old. Doesn't look much more expensive than buying outright (although I'm not a Mac expert so may have missed something).
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Re: Rental leader in this months SOS

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:41 pm

Wease wrote:I only relate to what I was told at university.....that any output we as students or lecturers created on university equipment was owned by the university and couldn't be commercially used by the student/lecturer

That certainly applies to the lecturers because they are employees of the company, and anything they do in work time, on company equipment, belongs to the employer. That's a fairly standard term of most employment contracts -- but nothing to do with the leasing of hardware at all. I had the same thing when I worked for the BBC -- it's quite a normal restriction.

I've not heard of that same contractual restriction being applied to students before... but I can see how it could get written into the legal arrangements between college and students.... Worth checking the small print!

A related issue that always annoys the hell out of me is when I'm lecturing on training courses for the BBC and their contract states that the IP in any training materials I develop for the course 'belong' to the BBC.... I don't think so matey! I always strike through that part of the contract and, so far, they have never complained or tried to 'acquire' my materials...

This came to head when a lecturer and student devised a mat for a dancer to trigger sounds whilst dancing.....they were told by the then dean that the project 'belonged' to the university because they used uni equipment to create it

Yes, I would completely expect that to 'belong' to the college, but not just because they used uni equipment; the lecturer did it 'at work' and within his paid working time and thus employment contract obligations would apply.

I'm surprised the college were so mean and miserly as to demand the resulting income stream from such a modest development... most would be more than happy with some positive publicity of the success story! On the other hand, Unis and colleges can and do make a lot of money from selling advanced IP developed 'in-house'.

I'm just wondering if a rental company rented hardware (and the subsequent operating systems and creating software...) would also claim ownership of materials created on their machines.....

While a clause could be included in the rental contract if they wanted, it certainly wouldn't be normal practice and I imagine could be challenged in the courts if they did!

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Re: Rental leader in this month's SOS

Postby CS70 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:26 pm

I really like the idea, especially Paul has a point where that would create an incentive for companies to create more maintainable and serviceable products, while occasionally producing truly innovative products that encourage people to swap. It would also benefit the economy, generating many skilled jobs, and creating a stable and smooth recycling chain with benefits for everyone.
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Re: Rental leader in this months SOS

Postby CS70 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:35 pm

Wease wrote:I'm just wondering if a rental company rented hardware would also claim ownership of materials created on their machines.....or if you'd have to sign something to transfer intellectual ownership to you as the user

While any company can choose any contractual restrictions they want within the limits of the law, any clause like that would likely render the service quickly dead in the water or outdone by competition, unless there was still a significant economic benefit to the user (and then it doesn't really matter, it would just be another cost of production).

The Aural Exciter used to be rented, and a royalty asked for it. Worked for a while and record companies were still making lots of money so went for it. Until it didn't work anymore and it becomes just another box.
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Re: Rental leader in this month's SOS

Postby James Perrett » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:07 pm

The problem is that the rental companies price things so that the break even point is something like 2 years (bear in mind that they're paying trade price on the gear). Rental isn't going to make things last longer - in fact the main reason for renting something is that people perceive that it is easier to upgrade as upgrades at regular intervals are often included in the rental price.

In the old days people used to rent TV's because they were seen as unreliable and servicing costs were included in the rental price. People like Granada and Radio Rentals used to play on customers' fears of huge repair bills but were actually making plenty of money out of it - a bit like places like Bright House or mobile phone shops today.
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Re: Rental leader in this month's SOS

Postby CS70 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:59 am

James Perrett wrote:The problem is that the rental companies price things so that the break even point is something like 2 years (bear in mind that they're paying trade price on the gear). Rental isn't going to make things last longer - in fact the main reason for renting something is that people perceive that it is easier to upgrade as upgrades at regular intervals are often included in the rental price.

In the old days people used to rent TV's because they were seen as unreliable and servicing costs were included in the rental price. People like Granada and Radio Rentals used to play on customers' fears of huge repair bills but were actually making plenty of money out of it - a bit like places like Bright House or mobile phone shops today.

A good point, and certainly a possibility.. but it opens for a business model where some clever competitor may reduce their costs by upgrading components rather than replacing (and makes it cheaper for the customer thus increasing their market share).

Of course we are in the hypothetical, so hard to say, and the only way to know for sure would be to make a business plan and hence the math and try and execute it.

It may depend on the product as well. Obviously in an Apple world, where status and looks count as much as substance if not more, it'd probably wouldn't work - as you say, people are likely to upgrade just because. By it may work in more technical fields or commodity ones. I wouldn't mind rent my tv instead of having it, so long I can have regular updates on its functionality (instead of being stuck with buggy Pioneer firmware :)) Or as another example, I currently rent my main car (meaning I don't have one), from a car share where I pick it up only when I need it. I have another (totally impractical) car for summer fun, and for the commodity use I always have a well maintained, problem free car, for a fraction of the cost of owning one.
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Re: Rental leader in this month's SOS

Postby blinddrew » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:50 am

There's probably an interesting psychological aspect to this as well in that the gear that is most desired is probably the stuff that could be most readily hired effectively but is also the stuff that people most want to own - illogical though that may be. I'm thinking high-end mics as an example here. I'd love to own a really high end mic (for example) but bearing in mind that to get the best out of it I'd be hiring studio space it would be far more cost effective to hire the mic at the same time.
But then it wouldn't be mine! ;)
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