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Liquid Mix - Is this a good idea?

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Liquid Mix - Is this a good idea?

Postby Aftertouch » Sun May 04, 2008 10:25 am

I have a Liquid Mix and think it is fantastic. I have also owned a UAD-1 and used a TC Powercore FireWire on a project. All have their plusses and minuses, but I do love the Liquid Mix's concept of the hardware controller/software combination.

Now, if Focusrite and for example Lexicon did some talking, this little beauty could compete with the UAD-1 by adding top-quality reverb and other effects to the Liquid Mix.

How?

The LM can accommodate an expansion card, which I believe doubles its DSP processing power and allows the LM to deliver more instances of EQ or compression at higher sampling rates. It could use this addition DSP power to run third-party effects, in the same way the UAD-1 and PowerCore line does.

As the hardware interface is geared up for controlling EQ and compressors, Focusrite (or third party developers) could produce lexan overlays (similar to those used on the Mackie Control Universal) which maps the LM's controls to settings such as pre-delay, decay, density etc. The meters are also ideal for monitoring effect levels etc.

Good idea?

Bad idea?

Have a vote!
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Re: Liquid Mix - Is this a good idea?

Postby Studio Support Gnome » Sun May 04, 2008 10:35 am

A separate product called Liquid FX , would be the sensible way forwards. why risk destabilising an already good , working, and popular product??

however it might be worth remembering that ALL of Focusrite's expertise, and that of Sintefex to some extent, is in the Pre-amp, EQ & Dynamics field...

which is why the LM & LC product range is so good.... that's all these guys do....


who's to say they'd make a decent FX unit?? what limited examples there are (the Saffire plug in series Reverb, for example) aren't exactly shining examples of excellence....


and why on earth would , Lexicon , for example, support the project??? they DO make their own hardware you know.,... rather good it usually is too ! a Liquid FX project would very likely steal significantly sales from their own product line... that's commercial stupidity, competition is already intense, without competing against yourself....
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Re: Liquid Mix - Is this a good idea?

Postby Aftertouch » Sun May 04, 2008 11:42 am

Max! wrote:
who's to say they'd make a decent FX unit?? what limited examples there are (the Saffire plug in series Reverb, for example) aren't exactly shining examples of excellence....


Nobody, that's why I suggested working with people who can ;)

Max! wrote:they DO make their own hardware you know.,... rather good it usually is too !


But how successful have they been in expoiting the possibilities of bringing thier technology to the DAW in a fully integrated way like the LM, UAD and PowerCore? I've seen some attempts by Lexicon, but I wouldn't exactly say (IMO) that they have achieved in this area what they are capable of if they were to team up with someone like Focusrite.

Max! wrote:and why on earth would , Lexicon , for example, support the project??? they DO make their own hardware you know.,... rather good it usually is too ! a Liquid FX project would very likely steal significantly sales from their own product line... that's commercial stupidity, competition is already intense, without competing against yourself....


Not necessarily true Max. Think about it - there have been many examples where two or more companies with expertise in a particular area come together, either to work on a specific product/service, or by way of mergers and acquisitions in order to deliver a compelling proposition to the customer. This has happened many times, incuding within our very market.

Here are some examples of such tie-ups:

Apple/Apogee
Edirol/Cakewalk
Digidesign/Focusrite
Mackie/eMagic (Logic Control)
Apple/AT&T & Apple/Orange (iPhone)
Apple and the record companies (iTunes)
Creative/Emu - whilst not considered "pro" this brought capable sampling capability to the masses.

The list of tie-ups goes on forever. Companies (especially forward-thinking ones) are always looking for new ways to push their technology, products or services. Companies working together, even seemingly competing ones often work together, is this as you put it "commercial stupidity"? - of course not, it's a widely used and more often than not sensible process of creating business synergies- just look at the major airlines of the world with commercial tie-ups such as One World if you want some examples of competing companies working together.

If you want examples closer to home, Roland worked with Universal Audio to develop a line of plug-ins for the UAD-1 called the Roland Classic Series FX Bundle. Neve did the same I believe. TC Electronic has also worked with others to bring third-party plug-ins to the PowerCore platform - (Sony Oxford and Access Music).

Remember when VST technology first appeared? Was this not technology developed and owned by Steinberg Media Technologies? Did third-parties (including some direct competitors) not work with Steinberg or adopt their technology in one way or another?

Going back to Lexicon - there have been several hardware devices with Lexicon effects built in. Why not a DAW DSP platform?

I don't believe these or any of the examples above have signalled the death of any of the companies involved through "commercial stupidity" - far from it I'd say.
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Re: Liquid Mix - Is this a good idea?

Postby Aftertouch » Sun May 04, 2008 11:47 am

Max! wrote:A separate product called Liquid FX , would be the sensible way forwards. why risk destabilising an already good , working, and popular product??


Developing a new product comes without risk?

R&D costs and if the Liquid Mix can be enhanced by means of a software upgrade (not without costs I know), then why not if it works?

In business risk can equal gains (big gains) if managed correctly.
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Re: Liquid Mix - Is this a good idea?

Postby Dave B » Sun May 04, 2008 11:51 am

Erm ... Lexicon have their own plans for a DAW integrated solution. It was to be the ill-fated MX500, but I notice that the firewire connectivity is in the forthcoming (if this one actually arrives) PCM96. If you also look into the hisory of Lex reverb units, you see that they are limited to the 44/48 (and in some cases not even the 48)k sampling rates which would put off some people.

TC already have a competing product.

Erm ... I've run out of reverb suppliers ...

TBH, I looked at the new Novation Nocturn and thought that it was a good idea : a generic controller the same size as the LM. Cunning. There's a lot of good reverbs out there as plugs so you could always use this kind of generic remote control for them. Best of both worlds.
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Re: Liquid Mix - Is this a good idea?

Postby Aftertouch » Sun May 04, 2008 11:57 am

Dave B wrote:Erm ... Lexicon have their own plans for a DAW integrated solution. It was to be the ill-fated MX500

My point illustrated beautifully ;)
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Re: Liquid Mix - Is this a good idea?

Postby Studio Support Gnome » Sun May 04, 2008 12:14 pm

Aftertouch wrote:
Here are some examples of such tie-ups:

Apple/Apogee 1)
Edirol/Cakewalk 2)
Digidesign/Focusrite 3)
Mackie/eMagic (Logic Control) 4)
Apple/AT&T & Apple/Orange (iPhone) 5)
Apple and the record companies (iTunes) 6)
Creative/Emu - whilst not considered "pro" this brought capable sampling capability to the masses. 7)

1) not a self competing product, neither company offered anything along those lines .
2) Edirol/Cakewalk. point.. edirol own Cakewalk
3) Control 24 not a self competing product... Nor at the time was the Mbox... relationship ended because AVID bough M-audio....
4) Mackie - Emagic... ended in tears.... for emagic...
5) no different from Nokia, Sony-ericcson etc.. Apple are a hardware phone supplier... there IS no tie up as such , outside of the normal for that market.
6) oh please.. Apple = a reseller, same as virgin, HMV etc.. but on line.
7) Creative Own Emu.,



not a single one of your examples is remotely analogous to the case at hand.

Lexicon are AFAIK owned by Harman.... and I suspect their domestic product line is the money spinner, on a much larger scale than their pro-audio line... you can forget Focusrite buying them out....


and we REALLY don;t want Focusrite bought by Harman to facilitate this little project either.....


No, where I reckon it has legs, is perhaps Audioease and Focusrite and Sintefex , working together... to bring Altiverb to hardware DSP... effectively protecting Audioease's investment by creating a DSP based, highly effective dongle.... and giving additional expertise to the Focusrite/Sintefex alliance

i didn't say the entire idea was silly.... just that as proposed it'll never ever work... and isn't a good idea for the existing product base to be hackneyed to do it... a dedicated platform is a technically better solution... AND... there's whole heaps of things to do with firewire that i'd like addressed first....

like, say building a FW400 hub in to a DSP device that takes it's connection from FW800... splitting out a separate allocated bandwidth FW400 stream that is unaffected by however much the DSP device uses on it's 400 of the FW800 connections...

There's a limit to the number of FW devices that can USEFULLY be connected and USED to their fullest at any given time...
if people gave us separate busses for things..... like 3 busses on a card , rather than 1 buss with 3 ports.... then life would be a LOT easier for those trying to use Powercore, Duende, Liquid Mix and say the PCM96 .....


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Re: Liquid Mix - Is this a good idea?

Postby Studio Support Gnome » Sun May 04, 2008 12:16 pm

Aftertouch wrote:
Dave B wrote:Erm ... Lexicon have their own plans for a DAW integrated solution. It was to be the ill-fated MX500

My point illustrated beautifully ;)

actually, no it's not.....
\


see the PCM96.


and think self competing.
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Re: Liquid Mix - Is this a good idea?

Postby planetnine » Sun May 04, 2008 2:24 pm

Dave B wrote:
...TC already have a competing product.


with a controller? which one is this? i'd love something that is the quality level of the M3000 or M4000 on DSP with a fader-box. have i been sleeping too long again?

every time i think about a powercore with the relevant plugins, i'm reminded that the reverbs purported to be copies of the 4000/6000 fall short of the mark...
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