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Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby ef37a » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:48 pm

Agharta wrote:
OneWorld wrote:And for some strange reason there's a sound driver installed with my graphics card and this shows as AMD High Definition Audio Device
All the above display in Device Manager/Sound Video and Game Controllers
Why would my graphics card install an audio driver?
I think it's required for HDCP content protection so that the audio path over HDMI is secured.

Makes sense but you certainly don't need the MOBO sound card if you have a USB or PCI interface. I always disabled it in my main PC running a 2496. I leave is working in this W7 HP laptop because I can then record radio sound (stereo mix) and it is convenient to just plug cans in. The drivers in my KA6 are good enough that they just overrule it, not all might?

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Agharta » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:31 pm

ef37a wrote:
Agharta wrote:
OneWorld wrote:And for some strange reason there's a sound driver installed with my graphics card and this shows as AMD High Definition Audio Device
All the above display in Device Manager/Sound Video and Game Controllers
Why would my graphics card install an audio driver?
I think it's required for HDCP content protection so that the audio path over HDMI is secured.
Makes sense but you certainly don't need the MOBO sound card if you have a USB or PCI interface.
This is not the Mobo sound chip but one built into the graphics card which in this case was highlighted as being an AMD card.
I think the main purpose for it is for content protection purposes.
They want a secure path from the PC to a TV so that you can't rip the raw audio data stream.

It's useful when for example you connect a laptop to a TV, provided it's selected, otherwise you would get no audio passed to the TV over HDMI.
This is my limited understanding of the situation and I imagine there's more to it than this.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby ef37a » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:58 pm

Agharta wrote:
ef37a wrote:
Agharta wrote:
OneWorld wrote:And for some strange reason there's a sound driver installed with my graphics card and this shows as AMD High Definition Audio Device
All the above display in Device Manager/Sound Video and Game Controllers
Why would my graphics card install an audio driver?
I think it's required for HDCP content protection so that the audio path over HDMI is secured.
Makes sense but you certainly don't need the MOBO sound card if you have a USB or PCI interface.
This is not the Mobo sound chip but one built into the graphics card which in this case was highlighted as being an AMD card.
I think the main purpose for it is for content protection purposes.
They want a secure path from the PC to a TV so that you can't rip the raw audio data stream.

It's useful when for example you connect a laptop to a TV, provided it's selected, otherwise you would get no audio passed to the TV over HDMI.
This is my limited understanding of the situation and I imagine there's more to it than this.

Yes, HDMI sound. THAT is what I said made sense but there is always, AFAIK, another soundcard on the MOBO. In fact I have an Asus MOBO that does not even have graphics! Hissed me off when I realized, had to shoot to Maplin and spend another 30 quid. Oh! Those were the days!

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Agharta » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:05 pm

ef37a wrote:... but there is always, AFAIK, another soundcard on the MOBO.
We were talking about the HDMI audio chip on a Graphics Card though so different topic.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby ef37a » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:22 am

Agharta wrote:
ef37a wrote:... but there is always, AFAIK, another soundcard on the MOBO.
We were talking about the HDMI audio chip on a Graphics Card though so different topic.

No? OneWorld asked if he needed three "soundcards" or just his RME.

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby OneWorld » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:33 pm

ef37a wrote:
Agharta wrote:
ef37a wrote:... but there is always, AFAIK, another soundcard on the MOBO.
We were talking about the HDMI audio chip on a Graphics Card though so different topic.

No? OneWorld asked if he needed three "soundcards" or just his RME.

Dave.

Yep, you got it in one :-)
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Agharta » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:32 pm

ef37a wrote:
Agharta wrote:
ef37a wrote:... but there is always, AFAIK, another soundcard on the MOBO.
We were talking about the HDMI audio chip on a Graphics Card though so different topic.
No? OneWorld asked if he needed three "soundcards" or just his RME. Dave.
That was the bigger picture but I only responded and quoted him on the Graphics card chip hence that was the context of my engagement.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby ef37a » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:27 pm

Agharta wrote:
ef37a wrote:
Agharta wrote:
ef37a wrote:... but there is always, AFAIK, another soundcard on the MOBO.
We were talking about the HDMI audio chip on a Graphics Card though so different topic.
No? OneWorld asked if he needed three "soundcards" or just his RME. Dave.
That was the bigger picture but I only responded and quoted him on the Graphics card chip hence that was the context of my engagement.

ALWAYS thinking of the bigger picture friend!

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Richard Graham » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:33 am

I use both Mac and PC for work and have used both for music production. If I want to just get on and record, compose or mix some music, Mac is way better.

Every time I use a Windows PC there seems to be some kind of impediment which I end up having to fix instead of getting on with the job at hand: this could also be because I do it so rarely these days.

As for cost, my first (and so far only) Mac, a (secondhand) 2012 MacBook Pro Retina cost me just over a grand, five years ago and it still works as perfectly as it has throughout. For a piece of kit that I use all day every day, I’d say this was good value for money. Yes I could have bought a Windows laptop with a similar spec for a couple of hundred less. Perhaps I’d still even be using it, who knows?

In fairness to Windows, It seems to remain backwards-compatible with software and hardware for longer, and it’s the only choice if you’re a gamer (I’m not). Other than that, Mac all the way. One more word of caution: there was an unexpected learning curve and it took a few months to really feel comfortable with OSX.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby desmond » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:42 am

Richard Graham wrote:there was an unexpected learning curve and it took a few months to really feel comfortable with OSX.

Yes, as people generally have to unlearn many of the MS/Windows conventions they've been using, probably since they started using computers.

I actually started (properly) on the Atari ST, which was very Mac-like, and that's where my roots were planted. I then diverted through the PC for many years, and never liked it much, because Windows PC's were mostly unreliable and over-complicated garbage in those days. I tolerated it because I had no other choice, really.

When I finally went Mac, liked I'd wanted to for years, it was a joy, as it was closer to coming "home", but even then, it still took me quite some time to unlearn the Windows conventions and find new ways of solving problems that I'd previously solved on the PC (ie, understanding where thing are, what apps/utilities will do the things I need etc).

Often it was the case that I wanted to do something that was usually hard on the PC, so went looking for the corresponding "hard" way on the Mac, completely overlooking simple and obvious ways (for instance, hunting about the file menu for import or conversion commands or utilities to get data into an app, and finding all you had to do was drop it on the window...).
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby OneWorld » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:38 am

Richard Graham wrote:Every time I use a Windows PC there seems to be some kind of impediment which I end up having to fix instead of getting on with the job at hand: this could also be because I do it so rarely these days.

As for cost, my first (and so far only) Mac, a (secondhand) 2012 MacBook Pro Retina cost me just over a grand, five years ago and it still works as perfectly as it has throughout. For a piece of kit that I use all day every day, I’d say this was good value for money. Yes I could have bought a Windows laptop with a similar spec for a couple of hundred less. Perhaps I’d still even be using it, who knows?

In fairness to Windows, It seems to remain backwards-compatible with software and hardware for longer, and it’s the only choice if you’re a gamer (I’m not). Other than that, Mac all the way. One more word of caution: there was an unexpected learning curve and it took a few months to really feel comfortable with OSX.

This is exactly the same problem I have, which seems more frequent with Win10 - many of the fripperies that Win10 dumps on the computer I simply neither need nor want, and the look of it is just plain fow, the Tonka Toy Gui. As you say, there always seems to be some sort of impediment.

I went through a period of enchantment with Windows, especially the Win7/64 phase and early Win10 - the PC worked reliably, quickly, flawlessly, and about 6 months ago, it all started to go horribly wrong, and I lay that clearly at the door of Microsoft with their Anniversary/Creative and whatever other load of junk they have dumped on us. Why cannot Microsoft produced a mean and clean OS, no bloat, no bric-a-brac and penny muck

For example I have an issue which I simply cannot resolve.....

it only happens with Cubase.

Imagine being sat at the computer and moving the mouse rapidly from left to right, every 2 or 3 seconds the mouse 'freezes' momentarily. Imagine the mouse cursor being in the centre of the screen and you want to move to the menu along the top of the screen, the mouse 'stalls' for a moment on the journey from the centre of the screen to the menu bar. OK it's not big deal, but when in Cubase and doing some intense editing, a lot of mousing about, it really is an inconvenience.

Now in sync with the mouse error, the progress line in Cubase stops too. Imagine playing a tune and the scroll bar is moving from left to right as the tune plays. The scroll bar stops every few seconds, only for a moment, then it starts moving again and catches up with itself, but again after a few seconds, stalls for a moment.

What makes this even stranger is that I can start Cubase and the fault does not show up until about after an hour or so of use. I am completely baffled by this behaviour. I have downloaded new/older drivers, I have even tried swapping out my Fireface 800 for my Liquid 56 interface, as I knew I definitely never had the problem before I got the FF800, but, no difference. And because it is relatively random, it's hard to track down when the problem first surfaced. I have tried every setting I can think of but no solution.

I have another problem, since I got a brand new 40" 4K monitor, some screens show the fonts all fuzzy, especially when looking at a browser, this page for example. I have been on the internet and it is something to do with "DPI Scaling" whatever it is, I have tried all the 'fixes' shown on YouTube but nah, it remains the same. So I am in the position of having a brand new 40" 4K monitor and the display is less clear than my old 27" 1280x720 display! And yes I have tried ClearType and Font Scaling, nothing makes any difference.

If I get a Mac I think I shall look for a decent 12 core, 32 gig, SSD drived Mac 5,1
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby blinddrew » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:55 am

OneWorld wrote:Why cannot Microsoft produced a mean and clean OS, no bloat, no bric-a-brac and penny muck.
I, for one, would happily pay a bit extra for this! Free install with all* the crud, £20 for a clean install with the option to download any of the freeware later.

* I'm assuming that the bloat ware is actually part of their profit mechanism? I.e. companies pay to have their software installed as part of the windows package?
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby CS70 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:07 pm

OneWorld wrote:For example I have an issue which I simply cannot resolve.....

It does look like something's off in your setup. That interruption can be a conflict with your graphic card, a CPU spike due to excessive DPC/interrupts by a driver, and so forth. That it happens only with Cubase could point out that's something related to your interface ASIO drivers, as it's the one piece of software which very few others application will see or use.

You could check the Event Viewer and see if you find any error there.

As of the Apple/PC issue there's no escaping the fact that Windows has to adapt to literally hundreds of thousands different hardware combinations, whose drivers are produced and updated independently by each manufacturer, and of course it's still expected work flawlessly. Nowadays, it mostly does. But of course, with respect to the vastly simpler operating space for Apple computers, the chances that a particular combination doesn't work (or stops to work after some driver for the hardware is updated) are higher.

Mostly tough, things can be fixed easily enough if one cares to look..
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby CS70 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:16 pm

blinddrew wrote:
OneWorld wrote:Why cannot Microsoft produced a mean and clean OS, no bloat, no bric-a-brac and penny muck.
I, for one, would happily pay a bit extra for this! Free install with all* the crud, £20 for a clean install with the option to download any of the freeware later.

* I'm assuming that the bloat ware is actually part of their profit mechanism? I.e. companies pay to have their software installed as part of the windows package?

My $.10 is that what is blotware for some, it's features for others. These people/companies aren't stupid, and assuming so would be a grave mistake, imho. And that's because the likes of Microsofts or Apples or Oracles (or the IBMs, in times past) have created and carried on an immense industry on their shoulders, they've done so over a quite large time range, and still do.

Sure, companies bureaucratize and deteriorate, but sooner or later (and usually sooner than later) stupidity shows in the bottom line (the name "Gibson" comes to mind..).

So the most likely explanation is that there's no sufficient demand for these kind of things, and/or the cost/benefit ratio is in disfavor. The way that modern software is made, removing bits and pieces is not straightforward and often creates a can of worms (cue image :D). The vast majority of users are not power users nor interested in audio or video or other niche activities. The biggest niche group is likely gamers - little wonder MS has actually taken them in consideration (and the XBox runs windows, what else).

The moment that product turns out to be appealing to enough people, something like that will probably appear.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby ef37a » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:41 pm

I have read somewhere that Steinberg and Microsoft never REALLY got on?

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby paul tha other » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:17 pm

im beginning to hate both of them....if im pushed for an answer i would say i hate mac a little bit less than pc..

i never let my music pc go online for the very reason the op stated

ive had a mac do something similar when i updated the driver for a midi interface..my motu audio card wouldnt work if i had the midi interface connected to the mac during boot up.it was like this for about 6 months then as if by magic it was fine again

my point is both systems have got pros and cons but for the most part are basicly the same.neither of them are immune to problems
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:31 pm

paul tha other wrote:...my point is both systems have got pros and cons but for the most part are basically the same: neither of them are immune to problems

^ THIS! :thumbup: :ugeek:
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby James Perrett » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:36 pm

OneWorld wrote:Why cannot Microsoft produced a mean and clean OS, no bloat, no bric-a-brac and penny muck

They do - it is called Windows Embedded and is totally configurable to the way you want it. The only problem is that it isn't available through the usual channels so you have to go to an embedded computer specialist to obtain it.

Maybe there's an opening for an embedded computer specialist to start selling reliable music computers using an embedded operating system rather than the general purpose version.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby ef37a » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:05 pm

Oo! I've seen that James.
I fixed the monitors in betting shop machines for a few weeks (when people fekkin' smoked!) and the "brain" was XP embedded.

Bit of a shlep out to Rugby every day and the gear was filthy but good money. This was at the start of the decline of cost effective repairs to domestic TV plus nobody had trained any service techs for 20 years! The agency was just happy to have this old fool doing it. 40 notes a week just petrol money!

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby forumuser918214 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:56 pm

I have not used Macs much, but my experience with Windows (XP on up to 10) has been fine and keeps getting better. No viruses (I use the Windows Defender), usable backup facilities, automatic updates and huge variety of software available.
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