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Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

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Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:33 am
by Jack Ruston
Yep - don't get us wrong...This is not an issue of whether he's right or not. That's a stylistic question for you to address: Does this producer deliver the sort of result that I want for my music? If they don't you're in the wrong place, simple as that. But if they do, then you move to the question 'Can I achieve this result without them?'...If you can, then you're in the wrong place. If not, you need to buy into the process. Sam mentioned that if you pay them, you can call the shots. I'm afraid I don't agree - The whole point of a producer is that they're the one calling the shots for the good of the project. A good producer will often do their best to accommodate your wishes, to work with you, although many of the best have been extremely combative, and used that approach to achieve a better result in the end. But ultimately their job is to realise your vision, and to some extent you need to allow that process to unfold.

Just for perspective -

1. I have never worked on a project where an artist has been responsible for their own vocal comp. Sometimes the artist is heavily involved in the comp. Almost always they will have comments and feedback on it. But the producer will always, always be involved in that process, and typically be the driving force in it. I can't imagine a situation where a producer would not want to hear any alternates.

2. It is extremely common to double or triple track sections of the vocal. There are genres in which it would not happen, but in 'modern' production styles it's ubiquitous, so much so that there are entire software packages dedicated to the alignment of doubles and triples with a comp'd main vocal. So it's not outlandish for the producer to ask for ammo from you to achieve those tracks.

One other thing - You're approaching this from a fixed mindset perspective: 'I can't do better'...'there's no point asking for more tracks, this is 100%'...etc. See if you can work your way to finding this an exciting exploration of what MIGHT be out there, rather than an augean task. This is an opportunity to find out what happens if you just go with this process. Even if you hate it, you'll know something at the end which you didn't know at the beginning. If you can't do this, you're....well you're in trouble. Because songwriting and making records is a lot about finding the limits of things. It's about working through things which don't work, along the way to things that do. If you dig your heels in, you never find where the edge of that process lies. I think I know how you feel - You thought you were done, box ticked, and then you discover that actually there's a whole load more work to do, and you're resistant, frustrated, angry even. As producers, as mixers particularly, we deal with that every day. We get things 'finished' and then it turns out that we have to untick that box, and make some changes, or do a load of alternate formats or stems that we didn't anticipate. You have to see it as an opportunity, an exciting discovery of some sort, rather than as an unfair extra, landed on you to satisfy some nonsense whim.

J

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:14 pm
by Mixedup
:clap:

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:16 pm
by CS70
Honestly I suspect all of this was just some trolling. No harm as the advice is sound so it's good for any future reader..

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:44 pm
by KevinGrem
I'm angry and burned out.

My artistry is being sabotaged by this whole process and it's taken its toll on me.

I will always love music and I will always be a musical person but I can't do this shit anymore. I'm taking a break. It's not supposed to be this way.

No matter what I do with my music my recordings are deemed not high enough in quality. I'm sick of the technical difficulties which hinder my creative outlet. It's been this way ever since I started trying to record.

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:53 pm
by zenguitar
KevinGrem wrote:No matter what I do with my music my recordings are deemed not high enough in quality. I'm sick of the technical difficulties which hinder my creative outlet. It's been this way ever since I started trying to record.

You are making an assumption that is almost certainly wrong. No one is saying your recordings are bad or not good enough.

Some very experienced producers have explained above that producers use alternate takes for all sorts of legitimate reasons.

Being asked to supply those additional takes is in no way a comment on your abilities.

Andy :beamup:

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:00 pm
by CS70
KevinGrem wrote:I'm angry and burned out.

My artistry is being sabotaged by this whole process and it's taken its toll on me.


But that's a pretty good definition of artistry! It doesn't come from sipping margaritas at the beach.

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:04 pm
by Sam Spoons
:thumbup:

Perhaps we should step back a little and ask KevinGrem for a little more info on things like were the vocal recordings were made, (commercial studio, project studio or WHY), whether he is paying the producer for his services, and where the mixing is taking place (similarly commercial or project studio etc.)?

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:42 pm
by The Bunk
KevinGrem wrote:
It's not possible for me personally to come up with any vocals with better quality than then ones I came up with and gave to him.



Any additional take will only be worse.

Just as a matter of interest, are there any particular reasons for this? I don't think I'd be alone amongst folk here saying that I've done any number of recordings (particularly guitar solos in my case as I'm not a great lead guitarist) where I think "I've actually really nailed that"; and then for some reason or other it turns out I was wrong or I needed to do it again, and just like you have said, I think to myself "B*ll*cks, I can't do it any better than that". And then you just have to think - "I've done it once, no reason I can't do it again". Unless, I don't know, you just can not physically get to make another recording.

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:13 pm
by Dave B
Kevin,

If you take a step back and give us some background, then maybe we can help. Hell, depending on where you live, there may even be someone close by who might be willing to give you a hand. But currently we don’t know what’s going on ...

As for giving up, if you really feel this way then it might be a good idea. This industry is fairly tough at all levels and many a muso has given up. But quite a few of us - at all levels - just keep plugging on because the idea of not doing it is just an alien concept. We just have to do it. Not for fame, and certainly not for money! Just because it’s what we are. If that’s not you then we completely understand. But if you’ve already put your all into doing this, then isn’t it worth finishing it?

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:17 pm
by KevinGrem
Ok so to give some more info about this:

The album is already done and released. It's been released for a while now.

I love it by the way. It turned out absolutely fantastic.

I was just listening back to a few segments where the idea occurred to me that maybe some layering would have made a few parts even better.

So I called up my producer and he said basically "yeah, that's what I was trying to tell you all along!".

The honest truth is that it is phenomenal as it is, with the exception of a very small handful of parts. I would like to layer on those parts and those parts only (which amounts to no more than 1% of the entire album).

He thinks I want to reopen recordings for the whole album but there's no way I'm doing that, not with how much he charges.

It's up to me. I have to give it some more thought.

I'll share the album so you guys can listen to it.

I put it on youtube for promotion and exposure.

Good luck with your album... But your whole approach here has been hugely disingenuous and smacks of trying to benefit from the high web ranking of the SOS site while simultaneously abusing the brilliantly supportive nature and considerable experience of the forum members. I have removed your web link and have locked this thread. I hope any future posts will be more honest. HR

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:45 pm
by CS70
Laughing.. all of this to promote a link and get views? You know if you just posted normal stuff you would get access to the "self promotion" forum and you wouldnt need all the sheningans..

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:48 pm
by KevinGrem
^Wrong. This is not about promotion.

Re: Vocal Layering/Doubling, need help and advice

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:51 pm
by CS70
KevinGrem wrote:^Wrong. This is not about promotion.

My man, after a gazillion post where you make people believe you're dealing with a production in the making, you come up with that's been done and finished long ago and casually post a link?

Thanks for the laugh tough.