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Separate Figure-8's? Really?

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Separate Figure-8's? Really?

Postby awjoe » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:36 am

I use coincident figure-8's for recording voice and acoustic instrument simultaneously, but this picture shows the two mics separated. Really? Would that increase the chances of phase issues if the singer/player moved around a bit?

Image

The picture seems to have been doctored, but it shows what I'm talking about.
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Re: Separate Figure-8's? Really?

Postby Jack Ruston » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:46 am

That's the way I would do it. Not necessarily that exact position but not coincident.
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Re: Separate Figure-8's? Really?

Postby Humble Bee » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:19 am

This is all about placing the voice in the null of the guitar mic and the guitar in the null of the voice mic. This to minimise spill between the two sources and to have more individual control of them at mixdown. The placement is not a stereo array but two individual figure-8 spot mics... Classic vocals/guitar recording setup. :thumbup:
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Re: Separate Figure-8's? Really?

Postby awjoe » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:34 am

Time to experiment, obviously. Thanks, you two.
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Re: Separate Figure-8's? Really?

Postby Humble Bee » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:58 am

In the interview with Dave Cobb in the latest issue of SOS, he goes on at length about using ribbon mics and their figure-8 patterns in ensemble recording for the same reasons and how old session photos of Elvis and others inspires him. Great read indeed! :idea:
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Re: Separate Figure-8's? Really?

Postby Jack Ruston » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:00 am

There are other ways to skin this cat...

You can try, for example, an Omni LDC positioned for both, with a preference for vocal, and then add a really close fig 8 spot to just support the bottom end of the guitar. That can work well. It just depends what mics you have Vs the singer's voice.

Or

You can try a fig8 on the guitar, and a really close dynamic on the vocal. Again, it depends what mic most suits the voice. Prioritise the vocal.
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Re: Separate Figure-8's? Really?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:15 am

awjoe wrote: Would that increase the chances of phase issues if the singer/player moved around a bit?

No. And that is broadly the way most people would rig the mics in this application. We're not recording stereo here, and -- unlike stereo -- we're deliberately trying not to capture the same signal on both mics at the same time, so coincidence is not a requirement. Worse than that, it actually makes life harder in this application.

All we're trying to achieve in this scenario is the maximum rejection of the unwanted source -- so minimal voice on the guitar mic, and minimal guitar on the voice mic.

Phasing requires the same signal to arrive at slightly different times via two different paths. However, as the whole point of that approach is that the deep nulls of each fig-8 mic reject the other source, the output from each mic contains only* its own source.... and there can therefore be no phasing.

* Once the level difference between wanted and unwanted is more than 20dB any crosstalk becomes insignificant in terms of signal phasing,

H
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Re: Separate Figure-8's? Really?

Postby Ramirez » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:09 pm

Jack Ruston wrote:There are other ways to skin this cat...

You can try, for example, an Omni LDC positioned for both, with a preference for vocal, and then add a really close fig 8 spot to just support the bottom end of the guitar. That can work well. It just depends what mics you have Vs the singer's voice.

Or

You can try a fig8 on the guitar, and a really close dynamic on the vocal. Again, it depends what mic most suits the voice. Prioritise the vocal.

+1

I almost always find that it's vocal spill on the guitar mic that's the problem, rather than the other way round (I think it may be that any colouration or phase issues is much more noticeable on a voice than anything else), so if the separation and control is needed, I often place a fig-8 on the guitar to reject the vocal, and a Beyer M88 or such on the vocal (it also rejects the guitar quite well, as well as being a good sounding microphone). Usually works well.

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Re: Separate Figure-8's? Really?

Postby awjoe » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:53 am

The first thing I tried was simply to separate the coincident figure 8's, and I liked the result. Less spill in each mic, more life in the overall sound. I'll play with the other ideas as well.

Thanks very much, all.
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Re: Separate Figure-8's? Really?

Postby ef37a » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:43 pm

July 2012, just looking at the issue this morning.

No doubt a link will be found/

... Here you go Dave! -- HR

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/recording-singing-guitarist

Or there's a similar archive article I wrote in 1996: https://web.archive.org/web/20150607061030/http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/dec96/singingguitars.html

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