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Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Watchmaker » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:30 am

music master wrote:Hi there
I was wondering what kind of sound quality I would achieve from Running a microphone into a mixer then mixer into a pc and running it off of some kind of built in Windows program

Terrible

music master wrote:I am thinking now that if I run a 3.5mm plug from the mixer to the pc, then that then will go into the computers inbuilt sound card And sound quality will be lost through the computers internal cheap sound card

However if I run a usb cable from the mixer to the pc, then that then will bypass the computers own in built sound card And the mixer should do the job of the sound card instead

But the mixer I will purchase must have a usb out channel on it as it would appear not all of them do

That depends on many things. The mixer will have to do AD/DA conversion to bypass the computer's sound card. You will need an appropriate software to "record" that and to manipulate the recordings. Also, USB is one of many protocols you can employ to transfer digital information from an external device to the computer.

music master wrote:What do you think?

I think more information about what you're trying to do would be helpful. :-)

music master wrote:Look at the mics, there are 3 of them
T bone mb 60

I'd say spend your money on something that will be useful. One decent mic is worth 35 lousy ones. The SM58 is a great, durable and flexible mic. Pretty much everyone has at least one for a reason...it's the one we started with. :lol:
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Mike Stranks » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:34 am

music master wrote:On another forum this kit was recommended to me as a starter kit

https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_pract ... ndle_1.htm

Look at the mics, there are 3 of them
T bone mb 60

If you're doing the rounds of the forums you're going to get really confused! Even here in this 'quality not quantity' oasis we can't agree! :lol:

The Thomann package will do the job and gives you everything you need in one go. It records decent-qulaity files too. My reservation is the mics.

Those mics will do the job in that if you make a sound it'll get translated into an electrical signal, but they are very cheap and sound it. Cheaper mics are generally not so good at rejecting off-axis sound, are more likely to pop and blast if used close to the mic and have higher levels of handling noise.

I know I've confused you about mics and I apologise. Get an SM58 and you'll have a workable sound. (However, make sure you buy from a reputable source - no EBay or Gumtree - as there are very many inferior fakes out there.)

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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby James Perrett » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:10 pm

music master wrote:On another forum this kit was recommended to me as a starter kit

https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_pract ... ndle_1.htm

Look at the mics, there are 3 of them
T bone mb 60

I'd say that it was a bit unbalanced in terms of quality and the things that really affect the sound quality (mics and speakers) are the weak points. Cheap vocal mics tend to have various problems like poor feedback rejection, poor windshields leading to excessive breath noise and either a dull sound or an overly harsh sound. The speakers have a maximum output level of only 114dBSPL which is pretty low compared to most decent alternatives.

If your budget is tight then look for something secondhand.
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Guest » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:25 am

Watchmaker wrote:
music master wrote:Hi there
I was wondering what kind of sound quality I would achieve from Running a microphone into a mixer then mixer into a pc and running it off of some kind of built in Windows program

Terrible
:
Why?
This guy said he recorded his track from sm58 to mixer to computer via usb
https://m.soundcloud.com/user-694791658 ... ghway-live
Dose not sound to bad to me!
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Guest » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:28 am

James Perrett wrote:
music master wrote:On another forum this kit was recommended to me as a starter kit

https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_pract ... ndle_1.htm

Look at the mics, there are 3 of them
T bone mb 60

I'd say that it was a bit unbalanced in terms of quality and the things that really affect the sound quality (mics and speakers) are the weak points. Cheap vocal mics tend to have various problems like poor feedback rejection, poor windshields leading to excessive breath noise and either a dull sound or an overly harsh sound. The speakers have a maximum output level of only 114dBSPL which is pretty low compared to most decent alternatives.

If your budget is tight then look for something secondhand.

So you think that bundle is a heap of crap!
But 114db should be enough for a pub/ club wedding venue
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby blinddrew » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:10 am

music master wrote:
Watchmaker wrote:
music master wrote:Hi there
I was wondering what kind of sound quality I would achieve from Running a microphone into a mixer then mixer into a pc and running it off of some kind of built in Windows program

Terrible
:
Why?
This guy said he recorded his track from sm58 to mixer to computer via usb
https://m.soundcloud.com/user-694791658 ... ghway-live
Dose not sound to bad to me!
I think Watchmaker was assuming you were going to go down the 3.5mm jack route you mentioned in the next paragraph. Assuming you're actually taking a USB output to the computer then you should be ok.
For a given definition of 'ok' ;)
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Mike Stranks » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:30 am

To fellow-posters:

We've got some thread-lag here! :)

The current suggestion from the OP is NOT to use a computer. The mixer-amp he's considering will record WAVs direct to a USB thumb-drive.

Carry-on! :lol:
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby blinddrew » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:35 am

Doh! My bad! Sorry. :?
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Mike Stranks » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:37 am

Not only you Drew... ;)
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby ef37a » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:41 am

"But 114db should be enough for a pub/ club wedding venue"

Possibly but those speakers are rated at 114dB SPL max presumably at the "peak" power input of 600 watts? The mixer is rated at only 150W per channel but even worse, that is into 4 Ohms and the speakers are 8 Ohms and so you can expect a maximum power delivery of 80W, 100W at best.

114dB SPL IS loud but normally that figure is the direct sound at one metre, ten or more mtrs down the room and it will have dropped off considerably plus a lot gets absorbed in people, cloths and furnishings. "Serious" PA speakers are rated at 130dB at a mtr for just those reasons.

Then, that 114dB has nothing to do with the recording capability which I bet is 16bit and has a noise floor of 80dB or so and probably suffers the usual "crap USB 16 bit whine" .

Last words.. The rig is called a "practice room" setup and yes, in a dead quiet, empty rehearsal room, devoid of sound absorbing, noisy inebriated bodies, probably fine!

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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Guest » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:17 am

ef37a wrote:Possibly but those speakers are rated at 114dB SPL max presumably at the "peak" power input of 600 watts? The mixer is rated at only 150W per channel but even worse, that is into 4 Ohms and the speakers are 8 Ohms and so you can expect a maximum power delivery of 80W, 100W at best.
I did not realize that mixers had anything to do with the out put amplification
This could now cause more problems no when selecting my mixer

But anyway so as not to confuse. Hear is a diagram of the plan again
https://ebayphotos.webs.com/IMG_20190303_234053.jpg

Ps. I should of written on the diagram that the speakers are somewhere around 500/600 watt
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby ef37a » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:39 am

music master wrote:
ef37a wrote:Possibly but those speakers are rated at 114dB SPL max presumably at the "peak" power input of 600 watts? The mixer is rated at only 150W per channel but even worse, that is into 4 Ohms and the speakers are 8 Ohms and so you can expect a maximum power delivery of 80W, 100W at best.
I did not realize that mixers had anything to do with the out put amplification
This could now cause more problems no when selecting my mixer

But anyway so as not to confuse. Hear is a diagram of the plan again
https://ebayphotos.webs.com/IMG_20190303_234053.jpg

Ps. I should of written on the diagram that the speakers are somewhere around 500/600 watt

I am not sure I understand your confusion? The mixer is a self contained "mixer/amplifier" aka "powered mixer" and your diagram shows that you get that?
My point was that the maximum SPL given for those speakers might be fine in a rehearsal room but not in a large, absorbent, noisy wedding venue. The other factor is that the speakers will not, it seems to me, be driven to that max SPL because the amplifiers in the mixer are not powerful enough.

Most PA rigs these days AFAICT use mixers with just a line out signal and active speakers with power amplifiers built in. Such speakers are moreover capable of much higher sound levels than 114dB at a mtr.

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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:55 am

music master: A bit more on mixer-amps and speakers may help....

You are contemplating buying a set of kit that Thomann has put together to make into a package.

The mixer-amp is capable of delivering a certain output and the speakers are capable of handling a certain output.

The speaker capability is, in your context, irrelevant. It's merely stating how much power that they can handle before they fail. (And I'll return to that in a moment)

What you're interested in - and what people are expressing concerns about - is how much power the mixer-amp is actually generating. Their concern is whether/not the system will be loud enough for the contexts in which you wish to use it. You'll note that the power output stated for the mixer-amp is much lower than that for the speakers. It's the mixer-amp you have to worry about.

The other problem that people are seeking to highlight is that in this context the term 'watts' can be (and is) stated in several different ways. We aren't getting much clue as to what the term relates to here.

A general benchmark (though not without issues) term is 'RMS watts' - let's use the figure of 100.

Then there's 'music-power-watts' which is usually double the RMS, so 200.

Then there's 'peak-music-power-watts'' which is usually four times the RMS, so 400.

We don't know what is actually being quoted so it's hard to establish 'loudness'.

And if that weren't confusing enough there's the efficiency of the speakers themselves that has to be factored in. An inefficient speaker needs far more input power to produce a given loudness than does an efficient one. It doesn't mean that the speaker is 'better' or 'worse' - simply that it's been designed that way. (As an aside. I've used a range of JBL speakers over the years. Lovely sound, but very inefficient so need lots of amplifier power to make them sound loud enough.)

The Phonic mixer-amp looks good in terms of the facilities it offers - especially the onboard recorder. One solution for you might be to build your own system using slightly 'better' speakers and a bigger/more-powerful version if the Phonic mixer-amp - Thomann do sell them.
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby ef37a » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:33 am

Mike, I will grant you qualified *&^%$! rms watts but it still grates! (wish I could come up with a snappier alternative to "continuous sine wave power"!)

However I still think the SPL capability of the speakers needs consideration? Quoted as 114dB max and, in the absence of any other information, can we assume that is "peak" (whatever tf that is!) output for the "peak" input of 600 watts?
If so that means the continuous "working" SPL is likely only a bit over 100dB and well below the capability needed in most "party" situations.

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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:33 am

Mike Stranks wrote:We don't know what is actually being quoted so it's hard to establish 'loudness'.

For the Phonic Powerpod I'd assume that the 150W pc is RMS or close to it. Anything less would be pretty useless for PA. Phonic quote 100W pc into 8 ohms.

The speakers are 8 ohm rated and have a peak output of 114dB and a 600W peak rating, which normally equates to 150W RMS. Working back, that equates to a basic efficiency of 92dB @ 1W @ 1m. Sounds about right for a cheap PA speaker (£56 each when bought separately)

With 100W input (20dB gain), the speaker will produce a peak SPL of 112dB.

Now that is going to be fine for a quiet acoustic rehearsal session, but isn't enough for any band with drums. A long time ago I did once try to use a Spirit Powerpad (30W pc) with two passive JBL EON 10" speakers for our rehearsal PA (trying not to take the 15" Eons and the Spirit Powerstation 600 for ease of packing and carrying) but it simply wasn't loud enough. That (by calculation) would have produced around 110dB per speaker. 2dB on top of that simply won't cut it once you get drums and electric instruments involved.

Remember that that's at full volume, by which time most PAs don't sound very nice so you'd want to run with some headroom, which makes it even quieter.

So if there's just one or two of you singing with one or two electro-acoustics, then maybe it's OK for a rehearsal, but I doubt it would be any use for gigs unless the audience was very quiet. Trying to get heard in a noisy pub/bar - no way.

Also you are going to need some monitoring when playing live, so you'll probably need at least one monitor, and to save carting a separate amp around, you're best going active. So if you go for at least a basic 12" powered monitor like this T-bone one https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_ma120_mk_ii.htm, you'll end up with a monitor that at 120dB peak, is louder than your FOH PA!

The problem with starter kit is that you almost immediately grow out of it. You'll notice its deficiencies within a few weeks, then you'll want something better. And then you find that you've lost at least half the value (if you can sell it).
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