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And now... the Zoom F6!

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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby The Elf » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:06 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:But the exponent part (the multiplier) of the 32-bit float file is set by the fader so that the user can record the desired level balance of different sources within the file. But even if the fader is turned all the way down, the actual audio from the dual-converters is still captured in full 'resolution' in the mantissa part of the file, so it can subsequently be set to any desired level in post-production by simply changing the exponent part of the float-file again (by normalising in a DAW or whatever).

Does that help with the concept?
Sorry, no. I'm even more baffled now! Is it just a monitoring level, or is it doing something before the audio is recorded? I'm assuming the former. In which case, isn't it just an output volume control? :headbang:
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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:06 am

The Elf wrote:I meant a new H4/5-ish type machine with this technology - not that they could somehow implement it in the H4/5 specifically.

Ah... yes... the front-end tech is complicated to get right, but not particularly expensive to implement (double that of a conventional input stage, roughly), so could be employed in a lower-cost and/or smaller channel-count machine fairly easily.

The challenge was making it work properly, but if Zoom has succeeded there (and it seems likely they have) then implementing the dual preamp/converter topology in other machines should be straightforward.

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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby Mike Stranks » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:08 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:T'wern't like that in my day... :cry:

Nor mine... Back in the early 70's the News crews for 'Points West' had four people: reporter, cameraman/director, soundman, lightsman.

These days more often than not for BBC local news the reporter does it all...

But I'm now engaging in forum-wandering - a common affliction! :lol:
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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:11 am

The Elf wrote:Sorry, no.

Bugger! ;)

Is it just a monitoring level, or is it doing something before the audio is recorded?

Think of the fader knob as a VCA fader, and the exponent part of the float file recording the VCA automation data! The actual audio content is always recorded in the mantissa, regardless of what you choose to do with the (VCA) fader.

Does that work for you?

The fader allows you to mix the input channels together to create a live stereo mix in the usual way, but your fader settings are also encoded into the individual (pre-fade) track files.

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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby The Elf » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:16 am

Maybe penny is falling...

That knob is an 'offset' (or multiplier?) to the mantissa, and that offset value is stored along with the data? (And can be changed to a different offset at any point later)
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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:16 am

Mike Stranks wrote:Nor mine... Back in the early 70's the News crews for 'Points West' had four people: reporter, cameraman/director, soundman, lightsman.

These days more often than not for BBC local news the reporter does it all...

Yep... or sometimes the reporter works with a single camera operator who also does the sound and lighting (although lighting is rare these days, partly because the cameras are more capable of coping with different lighting conditions).

In the mid-90s I was asked to deliver a series of training courses at Granada TV in Manchester who wanted to reduce their news crews from three to two for cost reasons (obviously). But the lighting union was much stronger than the sound union, and so the existing soundies got the heave ho, and I had to retrain a bunch of recalcitrant lighting riggers in the complexities and subtleties of sound... can you imagine what fun that was? ...or how successful the results were? :lol:

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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:17 am

The Elf wrote:Maybe penny is falling...

That knob is an 'offset' (or multiplier?) to the mantissa, and that offset is stored along with the data?

Precissement! :lol:

By jove, I think he's got it! :bouncy: :thumbup: Clever eh?
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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby Wonks » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:19 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:By jove, I think he's got it! :bouncy: :thumbup: Clever eh?

I believe that you'll have to marry him now, Mr Higgins.
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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby The Korff » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:21 am

That's how I understand it — it's (a bit) analogous to a digital camera that stores JPG and RAW formats of every photo you take (the JPG here is the file with level data embedded, the RAW is the unaltered wide-dynamic-range version, which you can then render to show data within the required 'window').

(...I think...?)

Cheers!

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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby Mike Stranks » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:46 am

The Korff wrote:That's how I understand it — it's (a bit) analogous to a digital camera that stores JPG and RAW formats of every photo you take (the JPG here is the file with level data embedded, the RAW is the unaltered wide-dynamic-range version, which you can then render to show data within the required 'window').

(...I think...?)

Cheers!

Chris

Yup! That's actually mentioned in the video...
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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby The Elf » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:48 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
The Elf wrote:Maybe penny is falling...

That knob is an 'offset' (or multiplier?) to the mantissa, and that offset is stored along with the data?

Precissement! :lol:

By jove, I think he's got it! :bouncy: :thumbup: Clever eh?
Ah dun thank I got mah mind right naw bowss!
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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:52 am

Thinking about it... it might have been easier if I'd said it was much like your DAW fader.

If you close a fader on a track in one mix pass and save the project, you can always go back and set the fader to some other value in a later mix pass if you want without affecting the actual stored audio.

Same thing in the F6 because it's using the same idea and technology.

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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby jimjazzdad » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:25 pm

Hugh:
Is this dual AD approach used for the F6 any different than the dual AD designs of the Sonosax SX-R4+ or the Zaxcom recorders with "Neverclip"?
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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:16 pm

Yes, as I said earlier, there are other systems that do very similar things. The R4 is certainly one. I've not examined the Zaxcom design yet.

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Re: And now... the Zoom F6!

Postby wireman » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:30 pm

The Korff wrote:That's how I understand it — it's (a bit) analogous to a digital camera that stores JPG and RAW formats of every photo you take (the JPG here is the file with level data embedded, the RAW is the unaltered wide-dynamic-range version, which you can then render to show data within the required 'window').

(...I think...?)

Cheers!

Chris

More like the standard HDR workflow of taking multiple images at different exposures.

I presume that Zoom are aware of Zaxconn patents (8,878,708)

BRIEF SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

Briefly stated, in one aspect of the present invention, a method of extending the dynamic range of a system analog-to-digital conversion system is provided. This method includes the steps of: receiving an analog signal; amplifying the analog signal via at least one amplifier; converting the analog signal amplified by a first of the at least one amplifiers into a first digital signal via a first analog-to-digital conversion system; converting the analog signal unamplified, or amplified via a second of the at least one amplifiers, into a second digital signal via a second analog-to-digital conversion system; receiving a first sample from the first digital signal; receiving a second sample from the second digital signal; applying a current calculated gain value to the first sample to create a calculated sample; outputting the calculated sample as an output; automatically switching the output from the calculated sample to the second sample if the calculated sample exceeds a first setpoint; activating a timer to countdown from a maximum value; and automatically switching the output from the second sample to the calculated sample upon the expiration of the timer.
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