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All about the tools and techniques involved in capturing sound, in the studio or on location.

Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:05 pm

CS70 wrote:Well yes and no.

When you first approach something which you have zero clue about, the manual is seldom useful. You cant't fill the dots if you don't have dots. A manual explains what a device do, but seldom the context in which it does it.

For example, I do remember very well having no idea of what "phantom power" was - not in technical terms, but in the idea certain microphones need power to function. The manual may say that pushing that button switches on the phantom power, but if you dont have a clue of what is or why it exists, it helps little if you don't realize that it's aimed at a microphone.

I agree, and a lot of stuff in manuals tell you how to do something but not undo it and that might not always be the obvious 'retrace your steps back to where you set out from' and there are the occasions where you can press a key or key combination on the qwerty keyboard by mistake, especially if you're as kakhanded as me and end up not knowing whether it's Tuesday or Milton Keynes
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:08 pm

Arpangel wrote:I realise that some manuals are pretty poor, but I think they've gone down hill badly.
I can remember the manual for my Tascam 32 real to reel, it had a picture of a piano keyboard with the ranges of instruments on it, I thought that was cool.
I used to go to bed and read manuals, OK, I probably am a grumpy old man, I admit that, but reading manuals in bed? I guess you can ad sad old man to that list.

:beamup:

And there's the rub - there's no manual on old age, or any other age I, unless you're a devotee of the Self Help sort of book I guess
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:14 pm

desmond wrote:Sure, I understand that.

But "I'm stuck, tell me which button to press" doesn't actually help in the long run, because the person has no understanding of why they were stuck, or how to get out of it, and the next time they get stuck, again they will have to call for rescue with "now tell me what button to press".

If you can help, but have the person understand what happened, and what the solution is, then the next time they encounter the problem - they no longer get stuck. Learning *reduces* the barriers to creativity, whereas giving quick solutions just gets them over that one barrier at the time.

It's the old give a man a fish vs teach a man to fish, thing...

Some people just want that fish, now, and being hungry later is a problem for future them... (hopefully someone else will give them another fish) :headbang:

I can't catch fish even when I am taught, I think the fish are reading a different manual to me
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Re: RTFM

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:30 pm

Don't be silly, fish can't read, anyway the paper would get all soggy. Fish get all their info off YouTube (obviously). :smirk:
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:36 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
desmond wrote:It's the old give a man a fish vs teach a man to fish, thing...

Some people just want that fish, now, and being hungry later is a problem for future them... (hopefully someone else will give them another fish) :headbang:

How true -- and this actually lies at the heart of why I left the BBC in the last century.

We used to teach new recruits 'to fish' -- as in we taught them how stuff worked and why it worked the way it did, and thus, how to use it effectively and efficiently. And by extension, that enabled people to figure out, connect and use unfamiliar equipment and develop new operational techniques to meet unique program demands. That all took time, of course, and initial training was typically 10-13 weeks long.

When I left in 1997, the bean counters had forced that initial training down to just 3 weeks! In that time we could just about teach people where the fish was -- as in which button to press when someone said go! But gawd help them if the button was somewhere different on a new device...

And, inevitably, what 'the suits' discovered a few years later was that the department managers really struggled to find people with sufficient skills and knowledge to be worthy of promotion.

Sorry .. it still irks me... :madas:

You are spot on there, back of the net. For all my sins I ended up working as a part time uni lecturer (a not a bad gig that was) but over the years the teaching was basically downgraded to mimmickery as opposed to thoughtery eg they were taught....

1 + 1 = 2

2 + 2 = 4

3 + 3 = 6

So I tried to get across the concept of x + y = z and the students looked at me like I'd just landed from the Planet Zog. I was told leave the x + y = z stuff out of things, of course the reason being getting higher pass rates so the uni could advertise 95% pass rate and the chancellor could get an MBE for outstanding contribution to higher education and of course 'nice bunce + lush expenses = luverly jubbly, cushty'

The university then fell in love with apprenticeships, the government throwing money at them saying 'vocational courses' were the new black, and 'more appropriate for the less academic' great I thought, till I saw the curriculum. There is this misconception that a vocational subject needs less cerebral effort - how wrong is that? Back in the day when I was an apprentice you were not only taught what tool to use but why it is used.

I don't know about nowadays but back in the day something like the maths for HNC Electronics tied you knots, certainly needed a much slicker intellect than if you were doing a BA in Finger Painting. In the end I just gave up trying to instil real problem solving skills instead of just making a flower pot out of lego and some sticky-backed tape and just took the money, any fool can work out if you're doing part time work for full time money it's better than a kick up the ass (to the nth degree) and it bought me a lot of kit
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:42 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:Don't be silly, fish can't read, anyway the paper would get all soggy. Fish get all their info off YouTube (obviously). :smirk:

Michael Fish could read
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Re: RTFM

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:51 pm

Naw he was just fooling you, that screen in front of him was showing YouTube videos of the news.........
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:58 pm

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:I don't know why, but this reminded me of the current growth of Flat Earthers as a movement. I got sucked into watching endless vids on YT about these crazy people...there's a good doc on Netflix too. Time and time again, people prove using simple techniques that the earth isn't flat yet these people refuse to believe their eyes and ears. It's mesmerising to me.

I recommend SciMan Dan as a good starter if you're interested in seeing the Flat Earthers in all their, er, glory. He's fighting a running battle with them on YT. Sorry, utterly off topic. Folderol's fault.

The earth is flat? the flat earthers want to come and pedal a bike up the hill that takes me to town, Holland might be flat but the north of England isn't, so yes I concede, the earth is flat but only bits of it
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:00 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:Naw he was just fooling you, that screen in front of him was showing YouTube videos of the news.........

He was a visionary fish as well, he dropped dead before YouTube was invented, maybe he had the Babel Fish in his ear
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Re: RTFM

Postby Rich Hanson » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:40 pm

Eddy Deegan wrote:
Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:I recommend SciMan Dan as a good starter if you're interested in seeing the Flat Earthers in all their, er, glory. He's fighting a running battle with them on YT. Sorry, utterly off topic. Folderol's fault.

:thumbup: It's car-crash entertainment but it's a guilty pleasure of mine. Baldy Catz and Wolfie6020 are also well worth checking out if you've not got them on the list already!

I had to unsub SciManDan in the end, the stupidity of the people he talked about started to hurt my brain :headbang:
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Re: RTFM

Postby Arpangel » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:40 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Arpangel wrote:I went on a course at the Beeb in the early2000's, I had to get a copy of Adobe Audition, and learn that, as it was the standard editor there then.

One of the 'standard editors'.... :-)

SADiE has been the primary 'craft' audio editing platform since the mid-90s and has been engineered to integrate nicely with the VCS diraNG playout/scheduling system.

Back in the early 2000s Audition was widely used for basic hack-editing and 'top'n'tailing', and sometimes simple packages that didn't need all the bells, whistles and finesse of SADiE.

But these days that work is generally done using StarTrack which is an integral part of the VCS DiraNG suite.

H

I never came across SADIE at the Beeb, we were working on audio for radio and TV, as you say, pretty basic top and tailing. I've only ever met one person, in my entire involvement with audio, that used SADIE, a friend, and he sold it at a massive loss at the end of his career, no one really knew anything about it. It's favoured by classical engineers AFAIK, because of its micro editing and high end hardware integration.
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Re: RTFM

Postby James Perrett » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:35 pm

Arpangel wrote: It's favoured by classical engineers AFAIK, because of its micro editing and high end hardware integration.

Quite a few mastering engineers used Sadie as it was one of the first to offer DDP creation and they had a great reputation for support.
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Re: RTFM

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:49 pm

Yes, its key strengths are really in stereo and mulitichannel mastering, classical editing, complex radio production, and audio for video. It's also very good for high channel count location recording.

It doesn't have much in the way of midi support, so it's not an appropriate daw for electronic music.

Prism is still developing SADiE, and their support for it is still absolutely superb, but I think it's also fair to say that it has much stiffer competition now than it used to have, and so has lost some of the dominance it once enjoyed in those areas. I use it most days (alongside reaper, audition, and RX) and still find its editing facilities much better than everything else.
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Re: RTFM

Postby blinddrew » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:18 pm

Mike Stranks wrote:Whatever we think about it.... they're not all like us! :lol:
https://youtu.be/f0m3n9mPssA?t=74
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Re: RTFM

Postby Eddy Deegan » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:27 pm

blinddrew wrote:
Mike Stranks wrote:Whatever we think about it.... they're not all like us! :lol:
https://youtu.be/f0m3n9mPssA?t=74

Genius :lol:
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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:57 am

Ok! I get it, most people are impatient, sound byte gits who want instant results for no effort.

But, it wasn't always that way? The "artist" and the "technologist" was usually one and the same person.
Even when Homo Erectus first banged on a hollow tree trunk with a mammoth's ulna he would be looking for better trunks, better bones and very soon modifying what he had. Even sans an instrument, ancient peoples would have noticed voices sounded better in caves so they would seek out bigger, better one then start changing them and eventually make "artificial" caves.
Painters would be bloody good imperial chemist! Of course, a gap would grow between the artist and the artisan but a violinists would still have a (many probably still do?) deep working knowledge of fiddle construction even though he would leave the actual work to a violin maker. BUT! He would not have expected a new instrument made overnight!

I defy you all to find an artistic endeavour that is possible without technology? What HAS happened in the last couple of decades is that many, many people have become lazy bstds!...N.B. I count myself among them. I KNOW I could do better and if I put the work in start playing guitar moderately well again.

So, I shall of course still lend what small support I can to the noob and I shall do it with a good heart and infinite patience but, take heed you really lazy ones? There will always be a tiny bit of my brain that is saying, "Oh! FF Sake!"

Dave.
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Re: RTFM

Postby redlester » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:42 am

desmond wrote:It's completely impractical these days to provide up to date printed manuals for complex software sold at a more or less consumer level, and I really hate all the excessive paper use too - so I'm 100% good with electronic, seachable, documentation.

I'm about 75% good with it. Agree the practicalities make it a non-starter, but in an ideal world I still prefer having a hard copy so that I can flick between pages quickly. Sometimes closely interrelated information in a PDF is spread across multiple pages - not always concurrent pages - which makes it such a pain to try to read (especially if it's something complex) then particularly in those cases I completely understand people giving up on the manual altogether.

I suspect like the vast majority, if I come across a technical or operational question I tend to Google it first because 99 times out of 100 someone else will have asked exactly the same question. For example if I want to find out a shortcut key for something I don't use that often, I would never dream of referring to the electronic manual for it, much quicker to Google.

But the size of manuals seems to be growing exponentially. I remember when Car manuals would fit comfortably in a wallet in the glove box. The electronic manual for my current car (Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid) is 776 pages, plus another 261 pages for the navigation and audio system manual!
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Re: RTFM

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:40 am

Eddy Deegan wrote:
blinddrew wrote:
Mike Stranks wrote:Whatever we think about it.... they're not all like us! :lol:
https://youtu.be/f0m3n9mPssA?t=74

Genius :lol:

Do you think he's a fan of this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2tzUFw_onY?
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Re: RTFM

Postby blinddrew » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:51 am

A clear inspiration! :)
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Re: RTFM

Postby Mike Stranks » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:00 am

... and he's already signed-up for Blindrew's Hawaiian Shirt Day!

(Actually, I think he is Blindrew... :lol: )

But... sobering thought... is that how we might sometimes come across to the newbie just starting the journey? :o
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