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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:19 am

Well lets put it to the test.

I am new to Cubase 10, at the daft stage of learning an app's new layout whilst in the middle of a project - ho hum

In C10 as with previous Cubase versions you double click to open an in place editor, and in C10 you can change the Preferences to get a full screen editor - easy, but how do you close the in place editor when it displays in 'lower zone' Where is the 'X' that closes a window? Looks like Steinberg has jettisoned established design and decided to how the means of closing the lower zone window.

I am trying to find it in the manual, but nope, no mention, so the best choice is the internet and SOS is the first stop knowledge shop.

As far reading manuals themselves. Imagine you're at the mixing desk and want to find a button for something. You have the manual lay to hand but at your side is an expert with the answer. What would you do, meander through the manual or simply ask the expert?

BTW - how do I close the lower zone window?

Got it, CTRL+ALT+E
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Re: RTFM

Postby ConcertinaChap » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:02 am

ef37a wrote: I don't drink so I can drive!

Ah, well that's your problem. All this would be a lot clearer for a couple of pints of Crudgington's Old Misty.

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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:58 am

OneWorld wrote:Well lets put it to the test.

I am new to Cubase 10, at the daft stage of learning an app's new layout whilst in the middle of a project - ho hum

In C10 as with previous Cubase versions you double click to open an in place editor, and in C10 you can change the Preferences to get a full screen editor - easy, but how do you close the in place editor when it displays in 'lower zone' Where is the 'X' that closes a window? Looks like Steinberg has jettisoned established design and decided to how the means of closing the lower zone window.

I am trying to find it in the manual, but nope, no mention, so the best choice is the internet and SOS is the first stop knowledge shop.

As far reading manuals themselves. Imagine you're at the mixing desk and want to find a button for something. You have the manual lay to hand but at your side is an expert with the answer. What would you do, meander through the manual or simply ask the expert?

BTW - how do I close the lower zone window?

Got it, CTRL+ALT+E

Well One, that depends. IF said expert is completely brassed off with all the daft questions he has been asked throughout the day and has wisps of steam issuing from ears, you might wish to not press him further and look it up!

Dave.
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Re: RTFM

Postby MOF » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:45 pm

I started out with my parents’ Mono tape recorder and later bought myself a stereo (SOS capable) recorder. My first Uni’ holiday job funded my Teac 4 track, mixer and Sm58 mic’.
I bought magazines such as Home Studio Recording and Studio Sound and effectively self taught myself through reading and experimentation.
In 1984 I was fortunate to get a job in TV and had formal training in sound engineering.
Later when SOS magazine started and I got into the Atari 1040 and Pro24, very soon to be replaced by Cubase, I was able to get into Midi, this time by reading the manuals and reading useful hints and tips in SOS.
I agree with the OP that too many people expect this knowledge and expertise to be just given to them.
Now that there is so much information out there on the internet you’d think that they could find the answers to their queries. I would like to think that this forum was here to help people who are genuinely stuck.
There are so many books (SOS shop plug) to give starters a comprehensive grounding in what has become a more complex technical area.
I remember the steep learning curve when I moved to Logic Audio and an Apple computer (before Youtube and the SOS forum) I had to read the manuals and ask a mate who’d persuaded me to move over to them.
It takes time and patience to master the technology.
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Re: RTFM

Postby ManFromGlass » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:38 pm

It does. Although composing/producing music is mostly a solitary activity for smaller and home studios. In the beginning it was quite frustrating to have your process stopped by not being able to figure out a simple thing, like minimize a full screen window. The more one works with the gear, the fewer those moments.
I’m thankful for those pre-internet moments where I could watch over a more experienced person shoulder. Now I’m appreciative of those YouTube’s for more tips, but also ways not to work.

Is it a curse that our gear can be so flexible?
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:54 pm

ef37a wrote:
OneWorld wrote:Well lets put it to the test.

I am new to Cubase 10, at the daft stage of learning an app's new layout whilst in the middle of a project - ho hum

In C10 as with previous Cubase versions you double click to open an in place editor, and in C10 you can change the Preferences to get a full screen editor - easy, but how do you close the in place editor when it displays in 'lower zone' Where is the 'X' that closes a window? Looks like Steinberg has jettisoned established design and decided to how the means of closing the lower zone window.

I am trying to find it in the manual, but nope, no mention, so the best choice is the internet and SOS is the first stop knowledge shop.

As far reading manuals themselves. Imagine you're at the mixing desk and want to find a button for something. You have the manual lay to hand but at your side is an expert with the answer. What would you do, meander through the manual or simply ask the expert?

BTW - how do I close the lower zone window?

Got it, CTRL+ALT+E

Well One, that depends. IF said expert is completely brassed off with all the daft questions he has been asked throughout the day and has wisps of steam issuing from ears, you might wish to not press him further and look it up!

Dave.

if if if.....if my aunt fanny had a set of wheels she'd be a bus, there's always the exception to the rule, but in the main part I find people of a friendly helpful nature as you'll find here when you ask a question
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Re: RTFM

Postby ConcertinaChap » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:45 pm

Well said, Sir. The proof of the pudding is that the People Who Know here are, in the main, very willing to help whatever the rights and wrongs of it. I think you have to look in Another Place if you want to see explosions of impatience and long may it remain so.

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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:09 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote:Well said, Sir. The proof of the pudding is that the People Who Know here are, in the main, very willing to help whatever the rights and wrongs of it. I think you have to look in Another Place if you want to see explosions of impatience and long may it remain so.

CC
I totally agree and I hope my slightly "off beat" tone does not give anyone the impression that I shall be any other than as patient and helpful as I trust people think I have been thus far?

My ONLY reservation is that after the help is given I think it only fair for "the helpers" to perhaps gently suggest the newb reads up a little bit?

The fact is, in many cases the enquirer often has no concept of how to frame a question properly and rarely gives very much in the way of information. How many times is it that just getting the make and model number of the offending device is a trial? Even discovering "mac or PC and OS" is often like drawing teeth!

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Re: RTFM

Postby desmond » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:01 pm

ef37a wrote:The fact is, in many cases the enquirer often has no concept of how to frame a question properly and rarely gives very much in the way of information. How many times is it that just getting the make and model number of the offending device is a trial? Even discovering "mac or PC and OS" is often like drawing teeth!

Yes, this can be frustrating - you want to help, but you have at least four posts of back and forth before the OP actually gives out any useful details at all. Otherwise it's just "my thing doesn't work", and then an expectation that someone else should make the effort of collating the details of the OP's problem.

However, while in some cases it's laziness, as you say, some people just don't have much of a concept of how to organise and frame details to be useful, so you can't blame those folks, at least. However, I do expect someone wanting help to be at least open to engage in a dialog. Sometimes people get frustrated when you don't tell them which button to press to immediately fix it - almost as if they think you're holding out on them. If it starts to become a fight to try to help, then I'd rather put my effort elsewhere...
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Re: RTFM

Postby Arpangel » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:39 am

desmond wrote:
ef37a wrote:Yes, this can be frustrating - you want to help, but you have at least four posts of back and forth before the OP actually gives out any useful details at all. Otherwise it's just "my thing doesn't work", and then an expectation that someone else should make the effort of collating the details of the OP's problem.

However, while in some cases it's laziness, as you say, some people just don't have much of a concept of how to organise and frame details to be useful, so you can't blame those folks, at least. However, I do expect someone wanting help to be at least open to engage in a dialog. Sometimes people get frustrated when you don't tell them which button to press to immediately fix it - almost as if they think you're holding out on them. If it starts to become a fight to try to help, then I'd rather put my effort elsewhere...

You've said what I wanted to say much better than I did in my original post.
Framing what you need say properly is essential. If you don't know the terminology, or the back from the front of a mixer then it's highly likely you won't stand a chance of driving whatever bit of kit you're wrestling with to get the results you want. If you're trying to offer help in these circumstances it's like talking down a plane and not knowing what plane it is or even where it is. And, at the last moment after many posts someone will give you a golden clue as to what it is that's causing them problems, and you think "if only they'd mentioned it sooner"
In this age of YouTube, you can watch a video that will most times, clear things up for you.
But equipment and music production issues are so unique and specific to the individual, you need to actually deal with someone who's had a wide range of experience, or a team of one to one experts, we are still fortunate to have places like SOS who offer this, there are others, but SOS is still the most laid back, and knowledgeable of them all IMO.
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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:04 am

If I could mangle a metaphor and stretch a related analogy?
Sight reading and a knowledge of musical theory. There have of course been many fantastic musicians that could not read music but many would say the ability only enhances music skill and has no downside. (I know there are excellent musicians who need the dots and can't busk but that is not, I would aver CAUSED by learning notation?)

So, would a person come to a forum and ask about learning piano then shun all suggestion that they learn to read music along with the instrument practice? Maybe but I am thinking they would get very short shrift!

I did music at secondary school and can just about work out a tune from a line of notes (but time sigs bugger me if I don't actually know the piece) . When I was in a "group" as most of my generation was. Shads, Beatles I had the piano copies and the chord names and could "fill in" the rest on a bass (but not as well as Macca!)

Son reads very well, not to orchestral or top session standard but well. He also has a good grounding in theory. But I have seen the work he has put in over the years.

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Re: RTFM

Postby Arpangel » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:27 am

ef37a wrote:If I could mangle a metaphor and stretch a related analogy?
Sight reading and a knowledge of musical theory. There have of course been many fantastic musicians that could not read music but many would say the ability only enhances music skill and has no downside. (I know there are excellent musicians who need the dots and can't busk but that is not, I would aver CAUSED by learning notation?)

So, would a person come to a forum and ask about learning piano then shun all suggestion that they learn to read music along with the instrument practice? Maybe but I am thinking they would get very short shrift!

I did music at secondary school and can just about work out a tune from a line of notes (but time sigs bugger me if I don't actually know the piece) . When I was in a "group" as most of my generation was. Shads, Beatles I had the piano copies and the chord names and could "fill in" the rest on a bass (but not as well as Macca!)

Son reads very well, not to orchestral or top session standard but well. He also has a good grounding in theory. But I have seen the work he has put in over the years.

Dave.

I think a knowledge of recording technology is a lot like a knowledge of music theory, having a lot of it can't do any harm. I always wish I had more music theory, I can't think that it could hinder my musical pursuits in any way whatsoever.
Jaco Pastorius said that he could tell immediately if someone was a top notch sight reader, if they said "well, I can read a melody....etc etc etc," he just used to walk away. You can either sight read or you cant. I can't.
I knew at a very early age that I didn't have the ability to follow a classical music career, I just wasn't focused enough, then I discovered electronics and it suited me better, my mind set. Electronics wasn't something I was doing because I wasn't good enough to become a professional pipe organist, if that was the case I would have given up music completely, simply because I couldn't live with that feeling.
My trouble is, and, maybe I'm getting to the heart of the main topic of this thread, some of us me included even though we've been involved in our fields for many years, only ever "learn what we need to know" to make "our music" and there are enormous gaps in my knowledges because of this, and maybe that's why some folks come across on the forum as being a a bit lacking in some respects, but it's only because of what I mentioned above.
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Re: RTFM

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:57 am

[Sweeping generalisation alert]

I think there are three kinds of musician :-

1, Classically trained (includes Brass Band musos). Can read fluently but can't busk for toffee/lost without dots.

2, Self taught (rock/folk etc). Couldn't read to save a life but can work stuff out by ear and busk almost anything with up to a maximum of 4 chords

3, Jazz musicians. Can read, busk, improvise, spout theory 'till the cows come home, have chops to die for and can make a decent fist of anything they are asked to play.

[/SGA]

Please note the poster's lingual/buccal interface.......
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Re: RTFM

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:09 am

This has been a really interesting debate, and it's fascinating to see all sides of the issue expressed so well.

I'm an engineer at heart... like my father before me (as the film says)... so that's the angle I approach these things from. But I've worked with hundreds of craft musicians and non-technical people over the years and thoroughly enjoyed those collaborations.

I don't take issue with people that want to just use something rather than understand it in depth. And my attitude is that I'm happy to help anyone with the technical matters provided they contribute at least some effort to grasp the core of what's involved technically -- so that they stand a reasonable chance of resolving future similar problems themselves, rather than asking for help again and again and again.

But anyone who does the 'don't give me all that technical stuff, just tell me how to plug this together" thing only gets one shot at an answer. :tongue:

It's a bit like teaching someone to drive, I think. It's not necessary to understand the thermodynamics of a turbocharger, or the schematics of an ECU be able to drive a car well... But it does help enormously to use the thing well if there is at least some concept of what a gearbox is intended to do and the practical consequences of front- versus rear-wheel drive... etc.

I have two (grown up) daughters, neither of whom are technically minded, but I did explain to them just enough about gearing (in a practical way using their push bikes, actually) that they recognise and understand why and what to do when going up and down hills. Likewise controlling front and rear-wheel drive cars via a professional skid-handling course at Donnington (which I thoroughly recommend, BTW).

However, I do find it deeply upsetting that seemingly so many young people are (a) profoundly technically illiterate and (b) proud of their ignorance!

H
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Re: RTFM

Postby CS70 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:14 am

Arpangel wrote:Framing what you need say properly is essential.

But again (and sorry to beat a dead horse) that is an engineering skill. And is far from commonplace!

Most "normal" people communication is very, very imprecise, and reaching an agreement is a process - starting with vague intentions and information and proceeding thru dialog. It's messy, slow and inefficient and takes way more time and effort than the minimum possible, but in the end the dinner is cooked and people manage to meet at a certain place and time, and babies are made and all that. :-)

That is the default of human communication and most people don't find it odd at all - they actually would find odd (if they'd think about it at all) that one should start a conversation or a question by specifying all the assumptions, context and objectives... "regular" people would be bored to death two minutes into the preamble.

Then there's mathematicians and, to a lesser degree, engineers - who make an art of communicating as clearly and efficiently as possible... that is what math is, a language to say things perfectly clearly but in the most compact way possible. It's hard tough and it takes a lot of practice both to write and read that way.

No wonder few engineers ever make it as politicians and businessmen. :D

Incidentally, I feel that part of the strange situation where the world is, is due exactly to that mismatch of communication - the people who know stuff, use a way of communication that is just not understandable by the many.. who can't care less of facts when these facts require a 10 minutes background just to get to the point. Then someone comes along and makes a 4 words slogan which starts with "Make" and ends with "again" and boom. But I digress. :D
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Re: RTFM

Postby ManFromGlass » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:39 am

and there is the greatest of gifts -

To be able to use the right 4 words for the lightbulb-comes-on moment
Or
To only need the right 5 tracks and the song is virtually written
Or
etc

Being a forearm on the keyboard and then spending hours removing the unnecessary notes kind of writer I am jealous of that gift

(But then there is jazz, as was pointed out!)
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:55 am

Sam Spoons wrote:[Sweeping generalisation alert]

I think there are three kinds of musician :-

1, Classically trained (includes Brass Band musos). Can read fluently but can't busk for toffee/lost without dots.

2, Self taught (rock/folk etc). Couldn't read to save a life but can work stuff out by ear and busk almost anything with up to a maximum of 4 chords

3, Jazz musicians. Can read, busk, improvise, spout theory 'till the cows come home, have chops to die for and can make a decent fist of anything they are asked to play.

[/SGA]

Please note the poster's lingual/buccal interface.......

Spot on +1, back of the net. There seems to be this binary approach to reading v busking, as if one is mutually exclusive of the other. There are reader's that can busk and buskers than can read. I went to music college as a mature student but had busked my way through music since my teens but sort of got to the point where busking wasn't doing it for me any more. I went to college, learned all about harmony, all sorts of scales and yes had to read about the history of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart right up to Pierre Schaeffer - I used to hate history in general, I don't now.

I remember once a documentary where classical v hip-hop was the topic with Goldie the hip-hoppist and I think it was the St Martins in the Fields choir.

Goldie went through all the cliches f-this and f-that, that ain't effin music, "but my music is passion, from the streets, from the People, real music not that stuff from people in posh frocks and bow ties" (women and men of course) And to some extent Goldie was playing to the camera, bigging up his street cred.

So Goldie was knocking some grooves out, but "there was something missing, something didn't effin sit right" and the challenge to the choir was to add their take on things. The choir analysed the music - took them all of 5 minutes and pointed out where his music did not follow the rules of harmony, yes have clashes by all means, that's creativity. They tried to explain to Goldie what the issues were but Goldie having no musical knowledge at all just threw it back in their faces, but for the sake of continuity, the choir had a pop at adding their perspective. There were of course the tantrums from Goldie (again I think he was playing to the camera to some extent) but the final result - in his words 'Magic!!!!'

Again undermining the point that music is a truly universal language - it's like food, there's no right no wrong just nourishing and tasty that's all that matters.
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:07 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:This has been a really interesting debate, and it's fascinating to see all sides of the issue expressed so well.

I'm an engineer at heart... like my father before me (as the film says)... so that's the angle I approach these things from. But I've worked with hundreds of craft musicians and non-technical people over the years and thoroughly enjoyed those collaborations.

I don't take issue with people that want to just use something rather than understand it in depth. And my attitude is that I'm happy to help anyone with the technical matters provided they contribute at least some effort to grasp the core of what's involved technically -- so that they stand a reasonable chance of resolving future similar problems themselves, rather than asking for help again and again and again.

But anyone who does the 'don't give me all that technical stuff, just tell me how to plug this together" thing only gets one shot at an answer. :tongue:

It's a bit like teaching someone to drive, I think. It's not necessary to understand the thermodynamics of a turbocharger, or the schematics of an ECU be able to drive a car well... But it does help enormously to use the thing well if there is at least some concept of what a gearbox is intended to do and the practical consequences of front- versus rear-wheel drive... etc.

I have two (grown up) daughters, neither of whom are technically minded, but I did explain to them just enough about gearing (in a practical way using their push bikes, actually) that they recognise and understand why and what to do when going up and down hills. Likewise controlling front and rear-wheel drive cars via a professional skid-handling course at Donnington (which I thoroughly recommend, BTW).

However, I do find it deeply upsetting that seemingly so many young people are (a) profoundly technically illiterate and (b) proud of their ignorance!

H

Again some excellent observations, good points and well put, and yes the last point is so depressing. In my time I have travelled widely, I've done more flying hours than Douglas Bader, but our country is the only country that is proud of ignorance, knowledge is for wussy geeks - I just don't get it.
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:21 pm

CS70 wrote:
Arpangel wrote:Framing what you need say properly is essential.



No wonder few engineers ever make it as politicians and businessmen. :D


Politicians honed to perfection the circumstance where the politician will answer the same question with a 1000 different answers until they hit upon the words they know you want to hear. And as anyone knows, being able to talk is possibly the most lucrative of careers
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Re: RTFM

Postby CS70 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:44 pm

OneWorld wrote:And as anyone knows, being able to talk is possibly the most lucrative of careers

Have had a couple girlfriends with whom that was a survival skill :D
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