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Re: RTFM

Postby Aural Reject » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:53 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:1, Classically trained (includes Brass Band musos). Can read fluently but can't busk for toffee/lost without dots.

Are you inside my head? :headbang: :bouncy:
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Re: RTFM

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:07 pm

OneWorld wrote:...but our country is the only country that is proud of ignorance, knowledge is for wussy geeks - I just don't get it.

That's even more depressing... I had assumed it was a global trend! :? :frown:

When I grew up in the 60s we had Lego and Meccano, and lots of electronics magazines, and DIY magazines, so everyone made things and understood the engineering involved at some level. We also had Concorde and Apollo and the Harrier jump-jet, and TV programmes like Tomorrow's World and Horizon and more -- so science and engineering were, if not mainstream, at least fairly high profile and a positive influence.

It seems to me that people generally don't do DIY any more: it's far easier and cheaper to discard broken things and buy new. And modern technology is so complicated and intricate that no one can mend it (beyond the board-swapping level). So no-one can make their own mobile phone, or TV set, or even service their own cars these days.

I'm all for technological progress, but when did we lose all interest in how things work?
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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:20 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:[Sweeping generalisation alert]

I think there are three kinds of musician :-

1, Classically trained (includes Brass Band musos). Can read fluently but can't busk for toffee/lost without dots.

2, Self taught (rock/folk etc). Couldn't read to save a life but can work stuff out by ear and busk almost anything with up to a maximum of 4 chords

3, Jazz musicians. Can read, busk, improvise, spout theory 'till the cows come home, have chops to die for and can make a decent fist of anything they are asked to play.

[/SGA]

Please note the poster's lingual/buccal interface.......

I am rather proud to say my son fits quite well into the Jazz slot! A few years ago he was associated with a group of musicians in Paris and did the arrangements and parts for them. The "boss", a lady singer/songwriter roughed out the tunes but it was Steve that got them ready for performance. He told me she used to bother him because he would never write or rehearse his guitar solo (if there was one) "Don't worry" he would tell her "better fresh on the night". Seems he always nailed it.

My BIG question is...Why ain't we rich?!!

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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
OneWorld wrote:...but our country is the only country that is proud of ignorance, knowledge is for wussy geeks - I just don't get it.

That's even more depressing... I had assumed it was a global trend! :? :frown:

When I grew up in the 60s we had Lego and Meccano, and lots of electronics magazines, and DIY magazines, so everyone made things and understood the engineering involved at some level. We also had Concorde and Apollo and the Harrier jump-jet, and TV programmes like Tomorrow's World and Horizon and more -- so science and engineering were, if not mainstream, at least fairly high profile and a positive influence.

It seems to me that people generally don't do DIY any more: it's far easier and cheaper to discard broken things and buy new. And modern technology is so complicated and intricate that no one can mend it (beyond the board-swapping level). So no-one can make their own mobile phone, or TV set, or even service their own cars these days.

I'm all for technological progress, but when did we lose all interest in how things work?

Lego and Meccano, now you're talking, warms the very cockles. Back in the day we seemed to have this obsessive compulsion to find out what made things work, and to make things ourselves, and women would make things too, they knitted and the men hammered and sawed and screwed things together.

A friend of mine has a craft shop and being elderly she is very resourceful, she comes from a generation where you had to make do and mend - she can weave, knit, make little wooden stools etched with a graphic of the customers choice, make doll's houses but says the younger end come into her shop and sadly are clueless, they can do none of these things. To their credit they man (well woman) the barricades protesting about climate change, the wastefulness of the consumer society yet can't even darn a sock lol And my elderly friend is not a prisoner of her generation, she keeps up with things, for example proudly showing off her new spanking new Galaxy phone last week.
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:52 pm

ef37a wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:[Sweeping generalisation alert]

I think there are three kinds of musician :-

1, Classically trained (includes Brass Band musos). Can read fluently but can't busk for toffee/lost without dots.

2, Self taught (rock/folk etc). Couldn't read to save a life but can work stuff out by ear and busk almost anything with up to a maximum of 4 chords

3, Jazz musicians. Can read, busk, improvise, spout theory 'till the cows come home, have chops to die for and can make a decent fist of anything they are asked to play.

[/SGA]

Please note the poster's lingual/buccal interface.......

I am rather proud to say my son fits quite well into the Jazz slot! A few years ago he was associated with a group of musicians in Paris and did the arrangements and parts for them. The "boss", a lady singer/songwriter roughed out the tunes but it was Steve that got them ready for performance. He told me she used to bother him because he would never write or rehearse his guitar solo (if there was one) "Don't worry" he would tell her "better fresh on the night". Seems he always nailed it.

My BIG question is...Why ain't we rich?!!

Dave.

Why aren't you rich?

MIles Davis was once asked "How do you make a $million out of jazz?" and Miles replied "Easy - you start with $2million"
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Re: RTFM

Postby The Elf » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:16 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:However, I do find it deeply upsetting that seemingly so many young people are (a) profoundly technically illiterate and (b) proud of their ignorance!
+1

...and you don't need to include the word 'technically'.

Try organizing a quiz night involving a significant number of under 30s and it's an incredibly sobering experience. :headbang: :cry:
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Re: RTFM

Postby Mike Stranks » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:51 pm

Men of a certain age unite! You have nothing to lose but your memories...!

... Nostalgia's not what it once was, is it?

:lol:
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Re: RTFM

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:03 pm

Do I know you? ... you look familiar... Nurse, what's for supper tonight?
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:29 pm

The Elf wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:However, I do find it deeply upsetting that seemingly so many young people are (a) profoundly technically illiterate and (b) proud of their ignorance!
+1

...and you don't need to include the word 'technically'.

Try organizing a quiz night involving a significant number of under 30s and it's an incredibly sobering experience. :headbang: :cry:

I sometimes try and adopt a more defensive stance regarding knowledge of the under 30's so if I go to a pub quiz and the questions about which hair dresser do Little Mix use or who was first to get bedded in Love Island then I am at a complete loss, an ignoramus, so different generations different knowledge.

However....I was in the pub when a football match was on - England v Germany and of course the anti-German banter was rife - "they don't like it up 'em" - "Don't mention the war" at which point one young lady said "We were doing the war in history at college last week - wasn't Hitler something to do with the war?" LOL

ON the other hand, I do watch some quiz programmes on TV and one is a quiz programme where families are the contestants, including the children, and some are very well informed, so there's hope for us yet I suppose.
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Re: RTFM

Postby James Perrett » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:30 pm

OneWorld wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:When I grew up in the 60s we had Lego and Meccano, and lots of electronics magazines, and DIY magazines, so everyone made things and understood the engineering involved at some level. We also had Concorde and Apollo and the Harrier jump-jet, and TV programmes like Tomorrow's World and Horizon and more -- so science and engineering were, if not mainstream, at least fairly high profile and a positive influence.

It seems to me that people generally don't do DIY any more: it's far easier and cheaper to discard broken things and buy new. And modern technology is so complicated and intricate that no one can mend it (beyond the board-swapping level). So no-one can make their own mobile phone, or TV set, or even service their own cars these days.

I'm all for technological progress, but when did we lose all interest in how things work?

Lego and Meccano, now you're talking, warms the very cockles. Back in the day we seemed to have this obsessive compulsion to find out what made things work, and to make things ourselves, and women would make things too, they knitted and the men hammered and sawed and screwed things together.

Well our lad certainly hasn't lost interest in how things work. Only yesterday I caught him taking the transmitter from his radio control car apart to see if he could fix the aerial. He also knows a few other people around his age who are interested in technology. The only thing is that most of them are labelled as having special educational needs.
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Re: RTFM

Postby Arpangel » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:21 am

OK.
People, on the whole, don't make stuff, DIY shops where you could get 17 2 inch No 10's in a paper bag, and a cut length of 2X1 are gone forever.
So are tool shops, they are a rarity these days, I still have and use my Lindstrom side cutters (Cutters-Cutting) and "81's" (Pliers-Plieing) that I bought secondhand in a toolshop in 1969, when I started my first job with Plessey.
I used to dissapear down the shed at every opurtunity, taking stuff apart, mending things, and repairing my bike.
A friend told me that a neighbour wanted to repair his bike, the boy asked him......
"Which way do you turn the nut to get the wheel off?" that says it all IMO.
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Re: RTFM

Postby baward » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:07 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote:One thing I do regret is the disappearance of the printed manual.

Too true, but it can go too far. For me, the highest peak (or lowest trough) of Manual was the trees-worth they included with (IIRC) Logic 9, which was the 1 inch thick main manual, plus about 3 other thinner ones, all wrapped up in a thick black box that you could probably have happily driven over with a tank (mind you, that was nothing compared to the manuals for the Synclavier II, but I somewhat digress.)

Technical support is a first port of call for me, followed by The Internet. In my case, Focusrite have been superb I have to say.
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Re: RTFM

Postby ConcertinaChap » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:49 pm

baward wrote:For me, the highest peak (or lowest trough) of Manual was the trees-worth they included with (IIRC) Logic 9, which was the 1 inch thick main manual, plus about 3 other thinner ones, all wrapped up in a thick black box that you could probably have happily driven over with a tank

I've ditched the box but I still have the key manuals from that set and I still use them from time to time. A surprising amount of material there remains relevant and browsing through a book is still nicer than paging through a PDF.

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Re: RTFM

Postby desmond » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:08 pm

baward wrote:Too true, but it can go too far. For me, the highest peak (or lowest trough) of Manual was the trees-worth they included with (IIRC) Logic 9, which was the 1 inch thick main manual, plus about 3 other thinner ones, all wrapped up in a thick black box that you could probably have happily driven over with a tank

That was the first Logic Studio, Logic 8, I believe. Yes, I still have that mammoth box set.
When I went the the Apple Store on Regent Street to get Logic 9, I was much relieved to find it was a small DVD carry size box with only a getting started manual.

Actually, they had literally received their shipment of the new Logic 9 an hour or so earlier, and hadn’t yet put it out on display... they had to go and dig it out for me so I think I was probably one of the first people to get the retail package in London. It wasn’t yet an online AppStore purchase at that time.
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Re: RTFM

Postby ConcertinaChap » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:49 pm

At least with all those books you felt as if you were getting value for money for your several hundred pounds (my wife was a mature music student at the time so we got it at academic discount which was pretty sizeable back then).

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Re: RTFM

Postby John Willett » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:11 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote:One thing I do regret is the disappearance of the printed manual.

I do agree - but nowadays most equipment is software controlled and has updades.

Every update means a completely new manual - so, in this instance, it's much better to update the manual electronically and have it as a PDF. :thumbup:
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Re: RTFM

Postby Arpangel » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:55 am

John Willett wrote:
ConcertinaChap wrote:One thing I do regret is the disappearance of the printed manual.

I do agree - but nowadays most equipment is software controlled and has updades.

Every update means a completely new manual - so, in this instance, it's much better to update the manual electronically and have it as a PDF. :thumbup:

I never update software, just can't be bothered, if it needs constant updates then it must have been wrong or incomplete in the first place, a bit like buying a hardware compressor and getting a letter saying "here are some capacitors and a transistor, you need to solder them in at some point to get the maximum signal to noise ratio, we have a new meter coming out in a couple of weeks, is it alright if we send that to you as well?
If programming code was so easy I'm sure they'd leave programs open ended, so they didn't even have to bother with updates.
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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:38 am

Arpangel wrote:
John Willett wrote:
ConcertinaChap wrote:One thing I do regret is the disappearance of the printed manual.

I do agree - but nowadays most equipment is software controlled and has updades.

Every update means a completely new manual - so, in this instance, it's much better to update the manual electronically and have it as a PDF. :thumbup:

I never update software, just can't be bothered, if it needs constant updates then it must have been wrong or incomplete in the first place, a bit like buying a hardware compressor and getting a letter saying "here are some capacitors and a transistor, you need to solder them in at some point to get the maximum signal to noise ratio, we have a new meter coming out in a couple of weeks, is it alright if we send that to you as well?
If programming code was so easy I'm sure they'd leave programs open ended, so they didn't even have to bother with updates.

Now I have professed my total PC numptyness at SOS forum many times but I do SO agree with the above!

In the purely hardware area of analogue electronics new products sometimes needed "mods" to improve a certain part of the performance but it was VERY rare that such mods affected the basic operation or safety of the equipment, they could thus be left until the gear came in for servicing.

Why then does Java, and Fire fox for just two systems seem to have updates every couple of weeks?
I also use IE11 on W7 (BT Yahoo) because it does some things better (FF has messed up Google Search) but in the last day or so an update has stopped auto-complete of email addresses and I am jiggered if I can sort it!

I understand (in a VERY limited way!) that things like Ms Security Essentials need to update but that never causes any changes to the basic software or my settings.

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Re: RTFM

Postby Mike Stranks » Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:53 am

Arpangel wrote:
I never update software, just can't be bothered, if it needs constant updates then it must have been wrong or incomplete in the first place, a bit like buying a hardware compressor and getting a letter saying "here are some capacitors and a transistor, you need to solder them in at some point to get the maximum signal to noise ratio, we have a new meter coming out in a couple of weeks, is it alright if we send that to you as well?
If programming code was so easy I'm sure they'd leave programs open ended, so they didn't even have to bother with updates.

For the benefit of any relative newbies who've persevered thus far in this increasingly bizarre saga, please don't treat this statement as anything approaching normal. Manufacturers of both hardware which is software driven and software itself regularly issue updates. These are often in response to user requests or suggestions and give you more facilities or make the product easier to use - or both. I always instal updates when I become aware of them. Costs me nothing apart from 10 mins max of my time. So, I always instal software updates.
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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:14 am

Well said Mike but it is very annoying when they SEEM to take away a function you found useful!

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