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Monitor position

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Re: Monitor position

Postby TNGator » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:10 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:I'm not sure I'd describe the ECM8000 as 'optimum kit' :D

Yes, obviously acoustical measurements can be made with any mic that comes to hand, and they may even be useful if used purely to assess comparative changes rather than to determine absolute figures.

But 'proper testing' means trying to assess the room acoustics in the correct way, surely? As a minimum, that requires an omni pattern mic with a reasonably flat response. While the pros might insist on using a calibrated B&K, AP, or Gefell measurement mic, I'd suggest that for a more casual interest the ECM8000 delivers reasonably accurate results -- better than using any old studio mic from the cupboard -- without breaking the bank.

H
Well you make an interesting point Hugh. Do i need absolute figures or would i like to test the room in its original state followed b a test with my DIY acoustic treatment installed. It would at least tell me how effective my hanging duvet etc is responding.
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Re: Monitor position

Postby Martin Walker » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:44 am

TNGator wrote:Well you make an interesting point Hugh. Do i need absolute figures or would i like to test the room in its original state followed b a test with my DIY acoustic treatment installed. It would at least tell me how effective my hanging duvet etc is responding.

Hi TNGator,

Yes, that's the perfect way forward - first find out with your measurement before acoustic treatment, which should help you relate problem frequencies (peaks, troughs, and 'ringing on') to your room dimensions.

This in turn will help you to find the most effective places for your duvet, bass traps or whatever - a duvet won't make a lot of difference at lower frequencies (where DIY bass traps would probably make more sense), but a measurement mic with suitable software (such as the freeware Room EQ Wizard) should still show any improvements.

Take the basic test, position your duvet, take another test, spot the difference, then try another position until you get the most effective position.

However, where you place your listening position in relation to the corners of the room will greatly determine how neutral your basic room sound is, so do experiment with that first before getting the duvet out. As others have said, the monitor position can make a huge difference, although with your cube-shaped room you have the trickiest problems, because all these peaks and troughs pile up at similar frequencies.

Hope this helps!


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Re: Monitor position

Postby TNGator » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:54 am

Martin Walker wrote:
TNGator wrote:Well you make an interesting point Hugh. Do i need absolute figures or would i like to test the room in its original state followed b a test with my DIY acoustic treatment installed. It would at least tell me how effective my hanging duvet etc is responding.

Hi TNGator,

Yes, that's the perfect way forward - first find out with your measurement before acoustic treatment, which should help you relate problem frequencies (peaks, troughs, and 'ringing on') to your room dimensions.

This in turn will help you to find the most effective places for your duvet, bass traps or whatever - a duvet won't make a lot of difference at lower frequencies (where DIY bass traps would probably make more sense), but a measurement mic with suitable software (such as the freeware Room EQ Wizard) should still show any improvements.

Take the basic test, position your duvet, take another test, spot the difference, then try another position until you get the most effective position.

However, where you place your listening position in relation to the corners of the room will greatly determine how neutral your basic room sound is, so do experiment with that first before getting the duvet out. As others have said, the monitor position can make a huge difference, although with your cube-shaped room you have the trickiest problems, because all these peaks and troughs pile up at similar frequencies.

Hope this helps!


Martin
Thanks Martin. Yes my room is a bit of a problem for sure. Its a cube and its a walk through room (door on each side) so Im limited where i can set up my desk. Im facing the window with a door on each side. I also dont have room to put in real bass traps. But I watched this YT vid and this guy tested various home products and found that normal bathroom towels did a great job of absorbing. Have a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pABvTWS ... dex=7&t=0s
Of course the fun part of all of this will be trying to learn how to use the test software. At present...I dont even know what Im supposed to be seeing when the software runs its tests. But it will interesting moving things around and seeing the different results. But Im looking forward to learning the software. And lets not forget some home made diffusers also. In a cube room diffusers are probably just as important as absorbers to break up the sound waves. I guess like breakers on a beach.
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Re: Monitor position

Postby Martin Walker » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:17 am

Hi again TNGator,

Yes, that's nicely made and fun video, and although somewhat useful, rather flawed (except see later on in my post ;) )

First, he confuses sound absorption with soundproofing - for absorption you need an open-cell structure (i.e. with these various foams if you try to blow through them your breath will come out the other side. This means that some of the sound energy gets dissipated inside the foam.

Some of those materials won't be open cell, so while they may attenuate the sound slightly, that's simply because they create a barrier between sound source and measurement, but will offer no absorption.

Also, his test frequencies range between 17kHz and 7kHz, a rnge that WILL be easily absorbed by open cell foam, and could therefore be useful in your cubic studio. However, most of the most troublesome room mode problems will be happening at 200Hz and below, where you'll find the biggest peaks and troughs.

The reason that the folded towel is most effective is that the sound is passing through four layers of towel, each separated by a small air gap, making the absorption more efficient. Also if you hang towels like that in your studio a few inches from the walls (particularly in the four vertical corners of your studio) they will be more effective down to a lower frequency. IN some ways they are very basic type of limp mass bass trap, where the sound tried to move all the layers as well as absorbing sound.

If you really haven't space for a 2 to 4 rockwool DIY bass traps (best at least 2 foot by 4 foot in size) then it's probably worth trying the towels - they won't do any harm and will tighten up the top end, particularly when placed at either side of your room at 1st reflection points (in your case this could be hanging on the back of those doors, again preferably spaced a short distant away from the doors.

However, having those two doors either will actually act as bass traps, since a lot of the bass end will sail right through the doors (see what it sounds like from the other side of the door to judge what frequencies got through and therefore 'escaped' the room.

EDIT: Watching to the end of that video, his final approach with a stack of towels WILL absorb significantly better (basically, the thicker the stack, the lower the frequency it will operate down to), and he does say that even as low as 500Hz he measured a decent amount of attenuation, so this IS well worth exploring. It won't cure room problems below this, so you're still likely to have a very 'lumpy' bottom end, but I'm sure it would with some mixing decisions, and it will certainly 'damp down reverberation as he claims.

All in all, a very cheap DIY approach that surprisingly I think is rather more worth exploring than I originally thought ;)

Hope this helps!


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Re: Monitor position

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:43 am

TNGator wrote:But I watched this YT vid and this guy tested various home products and found that normal bathroom towels did a great job of absorbing.

Oh dear... That's a classic case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing! His testing didn't actually measure or prove what he thought it was doing at all...

He was actually measuring acoustic transmission, not absorption, so it was hardly surprising that the materials with greater mass were more effective... Unfortunately, it's the absorption that's important in dealing with the room's sound character.

The fact that he ended up with an effective 'towel' trap was more luck than judgement, and he'd actually have been much better off filling the void behind his towelling cover with a slab of mineral wool. It would have been a lot quicker and easier to install (none of that fiddly sewing), probably cheaper, certainly more fire-resistant, and at least as acoustically effective, if not more so!

Ho hum...

H
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Re: Monitor position

Postby John Willett » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:23 am

Sam Spoons wrote:
John Willett wrote:But the phone *does* have to have a headphone jack socket to use it.

My iPhone does have the jack but they have a lightning version too (which since they're handling the A/D conversion should be better still)

The small micW measurement mic. is designed to plug into the mini-jack headphone socket and the setting in the app takes into account the response of the mic. and the reslonse of the smartphone so you get an accurate reading.
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Re: Monitor position

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:06 pm

MicW 365 is the one you are referring to and the Lightning version is the i367L. The jack version must use the iPhone/'droid's mic preamp and A/D. the lightning version must have it's own preamp and A/D so should not need any compensation for different makes of phone. However the response curves are significantly different with the i378L being much flatter to 10kHz but rolling off above so probably a better measurement mic but not much good for recording audio.
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Re: Monitor position

Postby TNGator » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:02 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
TNGator wrote:But I watched this YT vid and this guy tested various home products and found that normal bathroom towels did a great job of absorbing.

Oh dear... That's a classic case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing! His testing didn't actually measure or prove what he thought it was doing at all...

He was actually measuring acoustic transmission, not absorption, so it was hardly surprising that the materials with greater mass were more effective... Unfortunately, it's the absorption that's important in dealing with the room's sound character.

The fact that he ended up with an effective 'towel' trap was more luck than judgement, and he'd actually have been much better off filling the void behind his towelling cover with a slab of mineral wool. It would have been a lot quicker and easier to install (none of that fiddly sewing), probably cheaper, certainly more fire-resistant, and at least as acoustically effective, if not more so!

Ho hum...

H
Well it looks like every time I log on here I realize i know nothing. I'll put the towels back in the bathroom. My studio (TV room) was starting to look like Harrods. Duvets, towels, pillows, gents shaving, kitchen ware, electrical. And all on one floor too.
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Re: Monitor position

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:25 pm

:D
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Re: Monitor position

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:26 am

TNGator wrote:But I watched this YT vid and this guy tested various home products and found that normal bathroom towels did a great job of absorbing.

If ever the word 'water' was missing from the end of a sentence, that was it ;)
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Re: Monitor position

Postby TNGator » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:29 am

Eddy Deegan wrote:
TNGator wrote:But I watched this YT vid and this guy tested various home products and found that normal bathroom towels did a great job of absorbing.

If ever the word 'water' was missing from the end of a sentence, that was it ;)
:headbang: Well seems like lads testing hasnt gone down too well. Oh well. Mind you..Thomann do a range of treatments but just like mics and AI ...they range in price dramatically. i might measure my room and fire them an email. like everything else, you cant afford the expensive stuff but you dont want to buy the cheapest item and find it doesn't do what you need. Like a single mic input AI. Nice price but.... oh dear...only one mic at a time.
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