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Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

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Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Twinnie » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:51 am

Hi everyone, I'm new here and the reason I'm opening this thread is because I'm getting desperate...I've been learning (reading articles,wathing YT lessons, discussing with other musicians here in my town,practising with my own recordings etc) about mixing and recording for 2 years now and I developed taste for what my guitar should sound like for my songs. It's pretty much that straight forward direct "in your face" sound with little dirt and crunch.

Now, the problem is I recorded the other day with my fresh new Fender Hot Rod Deluxe IV and I just can't get it. I recorded it in small room which is 4by4 meters and I have on 3 walls acoustic panels (not the whole walls covered) and in each corner i have bass traps. One wall has window so I just put a matress on it.
Next, I put SM57 right on the grill as close as I can, aimed at the center of the speaker.

My EQ setting are alway around something like this: Treble between 9 and 12 oclock, Bass same as Treble and Middle and Presence around 3oclock with no reverb at all of course. I also use clean channel with OCD for overdrive and I generally like the sound when I'm playing with my band or even on my own in a room but I really don't like it when I record it.

And now the funny thing... Yesterday I was frustrated and after recording with Hot Rod, I switched it and put little Peavey Rage 158 transtube (5or more years old) amp that survived a lot of shit) with 8" blue marvel speaker and the mic placement, room, and setting were all same and BOOM... I got that little dirty crunched "in your face" tone recording, little muddy but it was it.

So my question is what the hell haha. Have I really spent so much money on amp that can't get me that thing even though I heard a lot of musicians have it. It confuses me because I know that 12" speaker and quality amp with SM57 is kind of standard for recording and I still get better results with small old Peavey amp.

And the real question is what sould I do, what can I change? Is Hot Rod simply too powerfull for small room or is something with micing or anything else. Any suggestion is welcome and I'm very keen on getting good recordings with Hot Rod so really, any advice is welcome.
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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Mixedup » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:26 am

The HotRod Deluxes are bloody loud... they sound great when played loud, but at those levels it doesn't sound how it will when played back at typical recorded music levels. I've always used a powersoak (THD Hotplate in my case) to get the sound I want from the amp at sensible volumes.

But... if your Peavey is delivering what you want to hear for a lower price, there's really no need to be snooty about it. Just count yourself as lucky and make some music!
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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Jack Ruston » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:45 am

It's possible that you're not hitting the amp hard enough...ie it's not loud enough...BUT it's likely that:

It's just the wrong amp...It's not really a cost issue, although that does depend what you're after in certain respects...but you could take a room full of the most expensive amps in the world, and find that most of them are just wrong for what you're trying to achieve in any given situation.

You may need to try other amps, and it'd be wise to see if you can get them back to your place to test the result before you commit.

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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Wonks » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:43 pm

If you can get mate to help you, you can always him to move the mic around whilst you play and listen on closed-back headphones. Sometimes its only a few cm difference between a good and bad sound. Try moving the mic away from the grille a bit as well. The further back you are, the more of the overall speaker sound you get (which is what you get when you are playing several feet away). Though the further away the mic is, the more reflected room sound it will pick up.

You can try with the amp on a stand (if it's not already), to cut down on floor reflections.

At least the Mk IV now has a sensible volume knob so it's not all happening between 2 and 2.5.

But unless you can turn the amp up when recording, then a less powerful amp would be more suitable for the job. There always seems to be a certain volume required before a valve amp starts to give its best sounds. Even a 15W amp is loud, so a 5W valve amp for recording might be an idea.

Or you could try using the HRD with a smaller, less efficient, speaker in a separate cab.

And make sure the cab and mic aren't sat right in the middle of your square room, where you'll get the worst effects of room modes.
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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Mixedup » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:57 pm

Wonks wrote:At least the Mk IV now has a sensible volume knob so it's not all happening between 2 and 2.5.

Ah, I missed that welcome 'innovation'! Even 2 used to be too high for most applications... but as you say, all the fun with that amp happened at louder levels anyway.
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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:22 pm

Twinnie wrote:Next, I put SM57 right on the grill as close as I can, aimed at the center of the speaker.

That mic position would be the first thing I would address. But, first, a question, do you like the sound of the amp when you are playing the part? As Wonks says, moving the mic a few inches further back will collect a more 'complete' sound, also the sound from the centre of the speaker will be significantly different to that near the edge, my normal starting point is a few inches back and halfway between the centre and edge pointing straight at the speaker (and with my rig, against the grill sounds much harsher than 2" back).
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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Wonks » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:41 pm

Right at the centre can work well if you are pairing it with a darker-sounding mic, say a ribbon mic, that's further out and you mix the sound to suit your taste.
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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Twinnie » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:37 pm

Thanks everyone and especially last two advices about mic positions... My plan or vision if you will was to catch that direct focused bite sound of amp with SM57 and a little wider complete sound with consender centered more towards the edge of cone and little more distant from grill. Thing is consender did the job and I like it, but since SM57 does not capture that direct in your face sound, when I combined the two it sounds dull and full of room ambience and by that, it loses that aggresion and tight sound, no matter how I balance them. And again, when I play live with band or just practice I like my tone and anything else I could change a bit in mixing proceess, but this kind of problem I can't really fix with anything in mixing since that agression is not there in first place, right?

I guess I'll have to spend more days or weeks till I find that haha.

And also I was thinking about some other amp to buy but its hard to find something that can work well for recording and for playing with loud drums as well when needed...
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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Wonks » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:18 pm

Forgot to mention that with two mics, you have to make sure that they are both exactly in phase with each other otherwise you'll get comb filtering and it won't sound nice at all.

You can either try and get it right at source, or (easier), move one track relative to the other in your DAW until the peaks and troughs line up. You'll never get exact waveform matching (otherwise the mics would sound just the same) but the peaks and dips will be very similar.
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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:39 pm

If you want to capture the sound you hear when playing you ned a mic or mics where you ears are, with the caveat that we are very good at filtering out room sound in a live situation so you'll still need to compromise. But, if you like the sound of the capacitor mic, why not just use that? I'm a big fan of using the simplest means of capturing the 'performance'. Some improvised 'gobos' using duvets should control the room sound to a point where a workable compromise can be achieved.
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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:52 pm

Twinnie wrote:And also I was thinking about some other amp to buy but its hard to find something that can work well for recording and for playing with loud drums as well when needed...

18 watts does it for me, more and it's too loud in the studio, less and not loud enough live. But while I play county flavoured blues and Americana I'm happy with an 'edge of break-up' clean sound rather than Boogie Mk4/Fender Twin Reverb cleans (which my back simply could no longer cope with ;) )

BTW, this article will give you more of an insight into how the mic position (amongst other things) affects the sound you record. https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/understanding-recording-guitar-speakers
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Re: Hot Rod Deluxe IV vs Peavey Rage158 home recording

Postby Matt Houghton » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:21 am

This one would also be well worth reading... Mike Senior's Guitar Amp Recording Epic
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