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Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

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Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby manleyelop » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:01 pm

Hi

im using reaper & the GSR-24 console from allen & heath im wondering can i use an eq plugin such as the maag eq when tracking without latency issues to get the best of both digital & analog ?

ive been experimenting using reapers input fx as im recording but i have latency which sounds like a small slap delay

I suppose my question is can i use plugins during tracking without the latency im hearing it would be very handy if not interesting?
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby Wonks » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:19 pm

Not without adding some (but not much) extra latency.

I would question why you'd want to track with EQ that will get printed to the track, unless you want to work in a very old school tape-like way. You'll get exactly the same sound by adding it afterwards, and also get it tweaked to sit in the mix better.

But you really need to get your overall system latency sorted first. Is this on PC or Mac? Have you checked your buffer size? Have you got the latest drivers?
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby manleyelop » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:50 pm

Wonks wrote:Not without adding some (but not much) extra latency.

I would question why you'd want to track with EQ that will get printed to the track, unless you want to work in a very old school tape-like way. You'll get exactly the same sound by adding it afterwards, and also get it tweaked to sit in the mix better.

But you really need to get your overall system latency sorted first. Is this on PC or Mac? Have you checked your buffer size? Have you got the latest drivers?
Hi
just my preference i like to eq as soon as possible (old school) perhaps

everything is sounding great in the studio i was just wondering if i could use a half decent vst eq instead of the gsr but it's maybe a bad idea lol

It's pc reducing the buffer size helps but i couldn't live with it to be honest i'd rather just not use plugins if that's the sound im going to get
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby CS70 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:28 pm

manleyelop wrote:i was just wondering if i could use a half decent vst eq

Well if you really want to do it in real time, the key is to reduce the roundtrip latency as much as possible.

Latency is simply the time that the signal takes to go thru the analog front end, be sampled into a data stream by the interface A/D converters, go thru USB, being copied to a buffer by the driver, being copied by the DAW into its memory, being processed by the EQ, being put back into the buffer driver, sent back via USB and then sent to the D/A converters so that it's restored as an analog signal that can drive the headphones. Interfaces are reasonably fast, but your Achille's heel is the processing required by the VST (and to a lesser degree the USB transfer time).

The problem is that your pc is always doing something else while it's processing the sample stream.

To reduce that, you can optimize your PC for realtime performance. First of all it's about your system - how the components and the motherboard interact to minimize bottleneck and unnecessary DPCs. Remove/pause scheduld task, have no other processes than the minimum (Process Explorer from SysInternals is the best application to have an overview of whats going on in your PC process-wise).

Then have nothing else than your base in your playback part and the EQ on your recording track. You really don't want anything else than the EQ to be running when you record.

Another possible trick is to set the DAW's process priority (or the process that hosts the plugin in some cases) to time critical or realtime performance. This is a trifle more tricky - it may or may not work depending on the ASIO driver and the DAW, and more than one process may need to be set to that priority separately, but if it works, once you find out a good recipe for your specific DAW it should work every time. The interface driver should also be given the same priority.

All that given, you can see what's the minimum buffer size that your CPU can handle with the EQ in.. and find out if you can live with that or not :)
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby Mixedup » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:47 am

If you really want to track through EQ to save time/commit to a decision... do you really need it in your foldback mix? Because that's the only thing that needs to be zero latency. I can see why a reverb or delay might help in a cue mix, but EQ... less so. And for reverb the latency can just be viewed as pre-delay (so dial that back on the reverb). And for basic EQ... use the one on the console butt don't print it to the DAW...

Personally, if EQ were that critical to my tracking and the desk channel EQ isn't up to the job, I'd invest in a nice outboard EQ or channel strip. I might add a cheap FX unit to the desk too, for cue-mix purposes (eg. TC M300 or M350.
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby manleyelop » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:49 am

Mixedup wrote:Personally, if EQ were that critical to my tracking and the desk channel EQ isn't up to the job, I'd invest in a nice outboard EQ or channel strip. I might add a cheap FX unit to the desk too, for cue-mix purposes (eg. TC M300 or M350.
getting a nice eq outboard is next on my list Tube Tech EQ 1A would be nice when or if cash becomes available :tongue: the GSR eq is usable though for now though the plugin idea came about as an idea but brought up another can of worms
i have a nice lexicon pcm70 & a few other various units that i use here
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby manleyelop » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:54 am

CS70 wrote:
manleyelop wrote:i was just wondering if i could use a half decent vst eq

Well if you really want to do it in real time, the key is to reduce the roundtrip latency as much as possible.

Latency is simply the time that the signal takes to go thru the analog front end, be sampled into a data stream by the interface A/D converters, go thru USB, being copied to a buffer by the driver, being copied by the DAW into its memory, being processed by the EQ, being put back into the buffer driver, sent back via USB and then sent to the D/A converters so that it's restored as an analog signal that can drive the headphones. Interfaces are reasonably fast, but your Achille's heel is the processing required by the VST (and to a lesser degree the USB transfer time).

The problem is that your pc is always doing something else while it's processing the sample stream.

To reduce that, you can optimize your PC for realtime performance. First of all it's about your system - how the components and the motherboard interact to minimize bottleneck and unnecessary DPCs. Remove/pause scheduld task, have no other processes than the minimum (Process Explorer from SysInternals is the best application to have an overview of whats going on in your PC process-wise).

Then have nothing else than your base in your playback part and the EQ on your recording track. You really don't want anything else than the EQ to be running when you record.

Another possible trick is to set the DAW's process priority (or the process that hosts the plugin in some cases) to time critical or realtime performance. This is a trifle more tricky - it may or may not work depending on the ASIO driver and the DAW, and more than one process may need to be set to that priority separately, but if it works, once you find out a good recipe for your specific DAW it should work every time. The interface driver should also be given the same priority.

All that given, you can see what's the minimum buffer size that your CPU can handle with the EQ in.. and find out if you can live with that or not :)

some great info Thankyou
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby The Red Bladder » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:40 am

The engineer who designed the GSR-24 console learned his trade after graduating under Rupert Neve during the R&D for the famous (commercially infamous!) Focusrite desk that back in the 90s was to cost about £300k. Much of what he learnt there went into the GSR-24.

The GSR-24 console has one of the best EQs I have come across. The phase stability even at extreme settings is quite remarkable and to some extent better than the original RN design.

And you want to replace this gem of an EQ with some ghastly plug-in that only results in latency and the need for workarounds?

Shame on you!

Use your ears man and stop playing with silly software!
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby jimjazzdad » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:03 pm

^^^ :thumbup:
listen to what Red says!
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby manleyelop » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:16 pm

The Red Bladder wrote:The engineer who designed the GSR-24 console learned his trade after graduating under Rupert Neve during the R&D for the famous (commercially infamous!) Focusrite desk that back in the 90s was to cost about £300k. Much of what he learnt there went into the GSR-24.

The GSR-24 console has one of the best EQs I have come across. The phase stability even at extreme settings is quite remarkable and to some extent better than the original RN design.

And you want to replace this gem of an EQ with some ghastly plug-in that only results in latency and the need for workarounds?

Shame on you!

Use your ears man and stop playing with silly software!
what the hell is wrong with people i ask a simple question i mention plugins & get rubbish like this dude shame on yourself stop being such a pompous dick im free to ask what i like here i use my ears & love audio anyway have a nice day :headbang:
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby jimjazzdad » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:27 pm

manleyelop wrote:what the hell is wrong with people i ask a simple question i mention plugins & get rubbish like this ... :headbang:
I think it is fair to question the use of VST EQ plug-ins, along with all the latency and conversion issues that you would experience, when you are using an $11,000 (new) console with top notch circuitry, no?
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby manleyelop » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:31 pm

jimjazzdad wrote:
manleyelop wrote:what the hell is wrong with people i ask a simple question i mention plugins & get rubbish like this ... :headbang:
I think it is fair to question the use of VST EQ plug-ins, along with all the latency and conversion issues that you would experience, when you are using an $11,000 (new) console with top notch circuitry, no?
I take on board with respect what redd says i use vst plugins but so what's the issue i was simply asking opinions about the use of plugins & the latency issue that's all. im also not interested in getting into a heated debate here ever :D
i also use the GSR-24 & that got mentioned also it's a great board i use it every day lol
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby The Red Bladder » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:58 pm

manleyelop wrote:dude shame on yourself stop being such a pompous dick

My being a pompous dick is based on over 50 years experience in pro-audio. I not only used the GS-R24, but I tested it for distortion and phase, using our Rhode & Schwarz test rig and seriously considered buying some channel strips or an entire desk just for the quality of the EQ. Back in 2012, I discussed the desk at length with Mike Griffin who lead the team that designed it, as I found the design so interesting.

I compared the EQ on the GS-R24 with the original RN design (which is what we have here at Bladder Towers) and found it to be superior in many respects - which I can assure you came as a bit of a shock! That's when I called up Mike to find out how he had achieved those improvements.

I apologise for upsetting you, but trust me, as much as I love Reaper and the plug-ins that come with it, nothing they achieve will compare with what you can do with the analogue EQ built into your desk.
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Re: Allen & heath GSR-24 using plugins when recording latency problems

Postby manleyelop » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:18 pm

The Red Bladder wrote:
manleyelop wrote:dude shame on yourself stop being such a pompous dick

My being a pompous dick is based on over 50 years experience in pro-audio. I not only used the GS-R24, but I tested it for distortion and phase, using our Rhode & Schwarz test rig and seriously considered buying some channel strips or an entire desk just for the quality of the EQ. Back in 2012, I discussed the desk at length with Mike Griffin who lead the team that designed it, as I found the design so interesting.

I compared the EQ on the GS-R24 with the original RN design (which is what we have here at Bladder Towers) and found it to be superior in many respects - which I can assure you came as a bit of a shock! That's when I called up Mike to find out how he had achieved those improvements.

I apologise for upsetting you, but trust me, as much as I love Reaper and the plug-ins that come with it, nothing they achieve will compare with what you can do with the analogue EQ built into your desk.
very interesting & understood but why not just say what you said above instead of calling just me lazy (which im not ) :D i work really hard in a small studio all funded by myself im not looking for a pat on the back just stating what i do.we could have had a beautiful conversation about the GSR_24 (which im hoping we can ) i would like to learn more about the console instead of me calling you a pompous dick apologies :D i agree with what you are saying i was just being creative outloud regarding the vst plugins you know far more than me regarding audio but lets be nice to each other
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