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PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:31 am

hardminder wrote:
n o i s e f l e ur wrote:
So basically . . . what motherboard is it?

Yes, sorry about that. My motherboard :
Gateway DX4860 (yes i know, crappy motherboard).
Chipset : Intel Ivy Bridge
Southbridge Intel H67
BIOS : American Megatreds P03-A3
Graphic Interface : PCI-E

Someone suggested that cheap chipsets could be the cause for my CPU not taking 32gb ram.

Would I be able to enjoy the advantages of the NVME M2 with only a new Mobo without changing my CPU or would that be plain stupid?

Thank you

Hmmmm yeah - I think it's probably time to upgrade the system! That is indeed a pretty basic board. It's certainly possible you could use an NVMe SSD on a better board (anything with PCIe v3 x4 slots, either a PCIe NVMe drive, or card-adaptor with M2) but finding something suitable is going to be a chore, to say the least.

hardminder wrote:

So if I have to change my CPU, no AMD until I go in the 3000 series. Noted!

Yep. AMD single-threaded performance prior to this latest gen wasn't pretty compared to Intel, particularly for audio . . . and multi-threaded performance (the whole reason one might go AMD versus Intel, to get more cores for the money) tended to result in poor low-latency audio performance also.

That said, I don't have a dog in the Intel v AMD fight - and I believe the latest gen AMD stuff has addressed all of the above. Single-threaded perf is now about on par (depending on workload sometimes a bit better, sometimes a bit worse), and they've fixed the microarchitectural issues that held them back on multi-threaded perf.

Agharta wrote:
Then there are the security issues with Intel platforms and the issue of whether the board you buy will have the latest and future updates.

This is completely overblown for a single-user desktop use-case, presuming you're referring to the recent speculative-execution issues? I mean, it's a real issue - but more something for the folks running datacenters to be concerned about. It's about on a par with worrying about Rowhammer attacks on RAM really. Let's not forget that Intel, MS and the BIOS / UEFI vendors have released mitigations for these, which funnily enough contribute to AMDs recent single-threaded competitiveness! ;)

AMD systems aren't completely immune from spec-exec vulnerabilities either, nor ARM. I agree a more modern system would be better in this regard, but again, it's a completely overblown issue for the common user.

I have to disagree about buying an older Ryzen system, they're sub-par with contemporaneous Intel kit no matter which way you cut it - and current AMD / Intel outperform it in every way that matters for audio work.

My advice would be to take a look at whatever current budget platform Scan offer (AMD or Intel), and hew closely to that.

Single fast M2 NVMe for everything will suffice - you can always add to this later. The whole point of NVMe is the protocol is designed for very low-latency / high-concurrency, it can service the OS perfectly well even during file loads like loading sample, audio tracks etc.

32GB of RAM in 2x 16GB sticks - again, you can add more as need / budget allows.

https://www.scan.co.uk/3xs/custom/daw-d ... ations#anc

If you can get a specialist outfit like Scan to build the new system, do that. I did. Not because I couldn't spec, source and build myself (I'm more than qualified to do so) - but because they could test the build before it ships, have plenty of parts to hand if issues crop up etc. It's a real pain to have to deal with RMAing faulty kit, and without known-good parts to swap out it can be quite the task tracking down any issues that do arise.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:58 am

hardminder wrote:
Well, my initial need was to upgrade my RAM and Storage so I don't plan on upgrading it later. I now understand that I will need toupgrade my motherboard because it doesn't allow for 32gb ram. You said you would build a Ryzen system no matter what but later you say "you can upgrade your CPU later". You mean later like after the new one I'll buy is not relevant anymore or like in "don't upgrade anything but your mobo and maybe upgrade the rest later". Sorry I receive a lot of information from 3 different people that might not have the same vision on the same issue and I have to go through that and take a bit everywhere. I know the basics about building a machine but I'm learning a lot s I read your replies as well. Please don't stop but sorry if not everything seems clear for me, I'm here to learn. Thanks

It really all boils down to whether you want to try and track down an old motherboard that supports your existing CPU, and at least 32GB or RAM or not.

All the rest is just icing on the cake, if you're happy with what you currently have. There's absolutely no need for M2 (NVMe or not). A bog standard SATA SSD would be a massive upgrade over any spinning-platter based HDD, much faster load times, much lower latency, much more able to handle OS, apps and data etc.

Once you have enough RAM in the system to avoid paging out to the HDD you're golden. :)

So that's it in a nutshell. It all boils down to your budget in the end. I mean, compared to that Gateway . . . you could basically go to the Dell website and pick up literally anything they currently sell and be better off. Gateway truly were the suck!

If all these initialisms like SATA, NVMe, M2 etc are causing confusion - just take a little time to research what they mean and how they relate to each other, and what they would mean for your use-case.

Don't get too hung up on AMD v Intel if you decide to go for a more comprehensive upgrade - as long as we're talking current-gen platforms they're both absolutely excellent.

Don't take my word for it though - if you pop over to the Windows Music section of the forum and ask there, I'm sure Pete from Scan can fill you in.

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=20

You'd probably have been better served posting there in the first place, but it's cool.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby Agharta » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:30 am

'I have to disagree about buying an older Ryzen system, they're sub-par with contemporaneous Intel kit.'

Ivy Bridge is hardly contemporary and we are talking about 3.3GHz quad core alongside slow RAM.
I'd take a Ryzen 2000 series over that.
I would recommend the 3000 series also but it comes down to budget and priorities.

I don't think you can boot from an NVMe drive with Ivy Bridge without using a custom BIOS which I'd avoid.
So you will need to use 2 SSDs plus an adapter to have your O/S on an SSD and have your libraries on an NVMe drive.
So again the cost is higher just to keep using an ancient platform which doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:05 pm

Agharta wrote:'I have to disagree about buying an older Ryzen system, they're sub-par with contemporaneous Intel kit.'

Ivy Bridge is hardly contemporary and we are talking about 3.3GHz quad core alongside slow RAM.
I'd take a Ryzen 2000 series over that.
I would recommend the 3000 series also but it comes down to budget and priorities.

I don't think you can boot from an NVMe drive with Ivy Bridge without using a custom BIOS which I'd avoid.
So you will need to use 2 SSDs plus an adapter to have your O/S on an SSD and have your libraries on an NVMe drive.
So again the cost is higher just to keep using an ancient platform which doesn't make sense to me.

If by "contemporary" you mean "current" . . . then no, and I didn't suggest it was. I simply stated that compared to same-generation Intel kit, it wasn't as good.

Look, I agree with you - it doesn't make sense to continue with the Ivy Bridge setup.

I'm not pushing the idea of separate drives for OS and libs - a single NVMe device will be performant enough to handle both concurrently. It's a good idea for other reasons, but simply not necessary for performance.

I'm of the opinion the OP would be better served putting the money toward a superior modern platform, than buying into an already-obsolescent platform and loading it up with more SSDs than needed. Those peripherals can always be added at a later date as budget permits, but getting stuck on Ryzen 2000 seems a false-economy to me.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby Agharta » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:00 pm

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:I'm of the opinion the OP would be better served putting the money toward a superior modern platform, than buying into an already-obsolescent platform and loading it up with more SSDs than needed. Those peripherals can always be added at a later date as budget permits, but getting stuck on Ryzen 2000 seems a false-economy to me.

Stuck in what sense! :think:
AM4 also supports Ryzen 3000 series and almost certainly the 4000 series due next year.
Whereas, if you build a system with Intel's current platform it will never get updates beyond CPUs fabricated on a 14nm process, which Intel first started releasing 5 years ago. Now that is stuck. :thumbdown:

The OP talked about a tight budget and there was no suggestion of being CPU limited which is why I suggested the Rzyen 2000 6 core.
I agree that the Ryzen 3000 is a better bet but that comes down to the OP and their subjective call on performance, budget and value etc.
A current Intel build will offer worse value and have a poorer upgrade path but is not a bad option per se.

OP, I suggest you choose your platform and then focus on what motherboard to buy and don’t go too far down the pecking order.
Keep in mind that if you decide on a Ryzen 3000 series chip alongside an older generation motherboard, then you need to make sure it can take that newer series of chip without you requiring access to a 2000 series CPU to upgrade the BIOS. Some boards will come with the BIOS pre-flashed to support the new series and a few will allow you to flash the BIOS even without a CPU installed.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby hardminder » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:08 pm

Thanks to all of you, I think I came down to a conclusion. I went a little over the budget but WTH, I'll have a great machine for some years to come I think. Here's what I'm planning on getting:

CPU : AMD Ryzen 5 3600 6-Core, 12-thread
MOBO : ASUS Prime X470-Pro AMD Ryzen 2
Samples/librairies : Samsung 970 EVO 1TB NVMe M.2 Internal SSD
OS + Program Files : 860 Evo 500 Go Intrnal SSD, 2,5 inch
RAM : Ballistix Sport LT 32GB Kit (16GBx2) DDR4

the reson I'm splitting the OS and librairies on SSD and NVMe M2 respectively is because 1 tb is not enough for both my libraries and OS+ProgFiles. And A 2TB M2 is just to expensive compared to a regular SATA SDD

What do you guys think?
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby hardminder » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:11 pm

So you guys can stop the arguing about 2000 vs 3000 series etc :lol: I think!
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:35 pm

Looks good to me, sensible choices. Ought to be quite the step up from your current system - you'll be amazed by how much better running a system off SSDs (of any type) is over spinning-rust.


Agharta - you seem to have taken my posts as pro-Intel / anti-AMD . . . and this simply isn't the case. I was just trying to point out that previous-gen Ryzen CPUs weren't competitive with their Intel counterparts for low-latency audio work. 3000 series, different story.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby Agharta » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:41 pm

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:Agharta - you seem to have taken my posts as pro-Intel / anti-AMD . . . and this simply isn't the case. I was just trying to point out that previous-gen Ryzen CPUs weren't competitive with their Intel counterparts for low-latency audio work. 3000 series, different story.

No, I just thought you missed the overall context relating to budget and that a Ryzen 2000 series will still look fine compared to Ivy Bridge.
I second your words regarding the Ryzen 3000 series as being a decent upgrade for DAW usage. :thumbup:

It's often a case of walking a tightrope when recommending gear as things like budget can be more flexible than initially apparent which is a good thing. :bouncy:
Some areas are more subjective than others meaning that one can only offer loose advice.

Make sure the ASUS Prime X470-Pro can support the Ryzen 5 3600 without you requiring a 2000 series, although AMD did offer free loans in the past for such scenarios.
Here it is but not sure if this is still active:
https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/p ... n-Boot-Kit
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:32 am

Agharta wrote:
No, I just thought you missed the overall context relating to budget and that a Ryzen 2000 series will still look fine compared to Ivy Bridge.
I second your words regarding the Ryzen 3000 series as being a decent upgrade for DAW usage. :thumbup:

It's often a case of walking a tightrope when recommending gear as things like budget can be more flexible than initially apparent which is a good thing. :bouncy:
Some areas are more subjective than others meaning that one can only offer loose advice.

Make sure the ASUS Prime X470-Pro can support the Ryzen 5 3600 without you requiring a 2000 series, although AMD did offer free loans in the past for such scenarios.
Here it is but not sure if this is still active:
https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/p ... n-Boot-Kit

Fair enough! :)

It's not that I missed the context re: budget so much as I paid attention to the OP mentioning they had no intention of upgrading this new CPU at any point, so my take was to get the best available at the outset . . . and I confess that super low latency is a bit of an obsession of mine, hence the criticism of the 2000 versus the 3000 (or Intel).

I agree it can be hard to provide advice over the internet like this, I did try and keep things fairly non-prescriptive. It might not have come across that way, I can only apologise.

The ASUS Prime X470-Pro are what Scan offer in their build, so unless they have a custom UEFI it should be fine (fingers crossed!).

As for stretching the budget . . . it appears a new Windows licence might have to be accounted for on top of the fancy new hardware!

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... 20&t=68787

I'd forego the Ballistix RAM for something cheaper, if trimming the budget.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby Agharta » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:48 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:The ASUS Prime X470-Pro are what Scan offer in their build, so unless they have a custom UEFI it should be fine (fingers crossed!)

That board doesn't support updating the BIOS without a CPU present but Scan will be able to use an older CPU to update the BIOS prior to installing the 3000 series.

Some manufacturers will put a label on newer stock confirming that the installed BIOS is ready for the 3000 series so you can check with the supplier before purchasing.
Not sure if Asus do that?

Boards that you can seemingly update with no worries:
https://premiumbuilds.com/motherboards/ ... flashback/
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby hardminder » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:37 am

Agharta wrote:
n o i s e f l e ur wrote:The ASUS Prime X470-Pro are what Scan offer in their build, so unless they have a custom UEFI it should be fine (fingers crossed!)

That board doesn't support updating the BIOS without a CPU present but Scan will be able to use an older CPU to update the BIOS prior to installing the 3000 series.

Some manufacturers will put a label on newer stock confirming that the installed BIOS is ready for the 3000 series so you can check with the supplier before purchasing.
Not sure if Asus do that?

Boards that you can seemingly update with no worries:
https://premiumbuilds.com/motherboards/ ... flashback/

So basically, you're saying I need to choose another mobo? How am i supposed to know the compatibility of two components. Even you guys, who are much more knowledgeable than I am, seem to be a bit confused by it.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby hardminder » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:16 am

Yep, my W7 licence is OEM
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:55 am

Well, the board's compatable - it's just you may have to jump through some hoops, or ascertain ahead of purchase if it already has the correct BIOS.

BUT!

Here's the 470 Pro . . .

https://www.amazon.com/Asus-Prime-X470- ... B07C64R1TW

And here's the 570 Pro . . .

https://www.amazon.com/Asus-Prime-X570- ... B07SW925DQ

70 bucks cheaper, and out-of-the-box compatible. I see Scan use this board in their more expensive build, so it ought to be at least as suitable as the 470.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby hardminder » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:28 am

"70 bucks cheaper, and out-of-the-box compatible. I see Scan use this board in their more expensive build, so it ought to be at least as suitable as the 470."

Yeah but still 125$ over the one I had planned to buy I'll right tomorrow, it's getting late here
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:02 pm

hardminder wrote:
Yeah but still 125$ over the one I had planned to buy I'll right tomorrow, it's getting late here

You've found an Asus Prime X470 Pro going for $70 ???

Post a link man, I might be tempted to throw together an AMD box myself!
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby Agharta » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:44 pm

hardminder wrote:
Agharta wrote:
n o i s e f l e ur wrote:The ASUS Prime X470-Pro are what Scan offer in their build, so unless they have a custom UEFI it should be fine (fingers crossed!)

That board doesn't support updating the BIOS without a CPU present but Scan will be able to use an older CPU to update the BIOS prior to installing the 3000 series.

Some manufacturers will put a label on newer stock confirming that the installed BIOS is ready for the 3000 series so you can check with the supplier before purchasing.
Not sure if Asus do that?

Boards that you can seemingly update with no worries:
https://premiumbuilds.com/motherboards/ ... flashback/

So basically, you're saying I need to choose another mobo? How am i supposed to know the compatibility of two components. Even you guys, who are much more knowledgeable than I am, seem to be a bit confused by it.

No confusion this end. :)
1. X570 supports 3000 series out of the box.
2. Old stock of older chipset boards (X470/B450 etc) will require a BIOS update before they support the 3000 series.
3. New stock of older chipset boards (X470/B450 etc) may have a more recent BIOS so don’t need a BIOS update. Check with manufacturers and retailers about this.
4. Some boards support BIOS updates without a CPU present so you can safely buy one of these and update to the latest BIOS prior to installing a 3000 series chip.
5. AMD were running a programme in some countries where they’d lend you a 2000 series CPU to use to update the BIOS to make it ready for 3000 series chips. Check if this is still available in your area.

Notes:
1. If you want PCIe 4.0 support then buy an X570 board. Hardly seems essential.
2. I wouldn’t recommend a 3 series chipset at this point, partly because support for the 3000 series is more patchy and the A320 doesn’t support it all.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby hardminder » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:32 pm

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:
hardminder wrote:
Yeah but still 125$ over the one I had planned to buy I'll right tomorrow, it's getting late here

You've found an Asus Prime X470 Pro going for $70 ???

Post a link man, I might be tempted to throw together an AMD box myself!

Well, The x470 pro you linked (on amazon US) is 263$ USD= 350$ CAD

The x470 pro I initially found (on amazon canada) is 190$ CAD = 150$ USD for some reason...

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07C57Q1XH/ref ... YDb56QSSTW

It's the opposite for the x570 pro
The one you linked to is 190 $ USD = 250$ CAD (+shipping, +1 month to ship...)

The cheaper I found (amazon canada) is 315$ CAD = 240$ USD

Go figure...

I'll check what Agharta has written on the matter.
I might buy the x570 pro on Amazon US to save 70$ but it sucks that I'll have to wait a whole month to get it.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:41 pm

Ahhhh right!

That does suck. Looks like it's going to cost you one way or the other, time or money or effort.

Well . . . effort, regardless.

Alternatively, contact the seller and see if the installed BIOS is version 4801 or later. If so - good to go.
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Re: PC Upgrade-SSD-Mobo etc.

Postby hardminder » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:12 am

I've just found a x570-P (not pro) for 200$ (150$USD)

I think I'll jump on that, all the x570 are compatible with 3rd generation Ryzen

"Boards that you can seemingly update with no worries:
https://premiumbuilds.com/motherboards/ ... flashback/''

Agharta thanks for that!

So my final build would look like that:

RAM : Patriot Viper Steel Series DDR4 32GB (2 x 16GB) 3200MHz Performance Memory Kit

MOBO: Asus Prime X570-P Ryzen 3 AM4 with PCIe Gen4, Dual M.2 HDMI, SATA 6GB/s USB 3.2 Gen 2 ATX

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 6-Core, 12-thread unlocked desktop processor with Wraith Stealth cooler.

Sample/librairies: Samsung 970 EVO 1TB NVMe M.2 Internal SSD

OS: Samsung 860 EVO 500GB SATA 2.5" Internal SSD

Total before tx: 963$ CAD (727$ USD, 566£, 659€)
Total after tx: 1079$ CAD (815$ USD, 634£, 739€ :lolno: )

I'm about to press ''Place your order'', I'm excited, christmas as come early, with the first snow storm :problem: (yes 20cm for tonight).

Anything to add guys?
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