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Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby Rich Hanson » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:07 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:
ef37a wrote:Contrast that with the recent production of War of the Worlds. I know it was SUPPOSED to be soul destroying but the lack of light became such a strain I gave up in the end. I will confess I found the plot line hard to follow. Maybe I should read the book?

Dave.

Naw, don't bother just listen to the Jeff Wayne version......

Indeed. Although it deviates from it, the musical version is still much closer to the book than the TV version.

There's also an audio book on Audible, based on the original musical version, but with much more of the original story (although again, it's still not totally faithful to the book).
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby ef37a » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:30 pm

". Meanwhile, viewers at home with the £50 LCD sets from Tescos (which they're viewing from well off-axis) can't see half of what's going on! "

Scuse ME Hugh! My 42" PCWorld JVC Smart(ish) TV was the thick end of £400!
Maybe I should just turn the light off but then I shall go A over T when I have to go for a P!

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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:41 pm

ef37a wrote:Scuse ME Hugh! My 42" PCWorld JVC Smart(ish) TV was the thick end of £400!

:lol:

The point I was making is that the gamma curve of LCD sets -- no matter their price -- is very different to that of Plasma (and OLED). The latter closely match the typical camera gamma which allows far more detail 'in the blacks', whereas the LCD sets don't. It's just the way the technology is...

So the programme makers use high quality camera technology which favours high-end viewing equipment, while the average viewer favours much cheaper viewing technology which is inherently compromised.

I wonder if there's a parallel here between the way vinyl records are cut and replayed? It's done right at the professional source, and bodged at the consumer end. :D

H
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby ef37a » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:48 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
ef37a wrote:Scuse ME Hugh! My 42" PCWorld JVC Smart(ish) TV was the thick end of £400!

:lol:

The point I was making is that the gamma curve of LCD sets -- no matter their price -- is very different to that of Plasma (and OLED). The latter closely match the typical camera gamma which allows far more detail 'in the blacks', whereas the LCD sets don't. It's just the way the technology is...

So the programme makers use high quality camera technology which favours high-end viewing equipment, while the average viewer favours much cheaper viewing technology which is inherently compromised.

I wonder if there's a parallel here between the way vinyl records are cut and replayed? It's done right at the professional source, and bodged at the consumer end. :D

H

Been many decades since I did C&G Colour Television but isn't 'gamma' just the linearity of the video amplifiers? (and Col diff amps when I did it!)
If so, cannot that be made tweakable in the TV's software? My set has "Natural, Dynamic, Cinema and Sport" are they related to gamma at all?

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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:22 pm

Me too... and I'm a soundie not a video guy, so I'm getting out of my depth here... all I can say is that I've sat through a lot of tech talks about the differences between different types of TV for use in TV galleries etc (while waiting to talk about surround sound, usually). The above is the received wisdom I picked up...
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby MOF » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:24 pm

I wonder if there's a parallel here between the way vinyl records are cut and replayed? It's done right at the professional source, and bodged at the consumer end. :D

H

Or better still, listen on CD, even closer to what was on the master tape. :D
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby Arpangel » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:27 am

MOF wrote:
I wonder if there's a parallel here between the way vinyl records are cut and replayed? It's done right at the professional source, and bodged at the consumer end. :D

H

Or better still, listen on CD, even closer to what was on the master tape. :D

I think the reason why CD was so successful, is because you can't really have a badly set-up CDplayer, but you can have a terribly set up turntable, or one so bad it will damage your records, neither of these things were applicable to CD. In the case of CD it was the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby ef37a » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:46 am

Arpangel wrote:
MOF wrote:
I wonder if there's a parallel here between the way vinyl records are cut and replayed? It's done right at the professional source, and bodged at the consumer end. :D

H

Or better still, listen on CD, even closer to what was on the master tape. :D

I think the reason why CD was so successful, is because you can't really have a badly set-up CDplayer, but you can have a terribly set up turntable, or one so bad it will damage your records, neither of these things were applicable to CD. In the case of CD it was the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

IMHO any recording medium which is frequency/level sensitive to a high degree cannot produce the ultimate in fidelity.

Tape was bad enough but massively better than vinyl! Surely the balance of the final product was in the gift of the cutting engineer and different ones would have had different ideas of what was 'right'?

Yes, playback systems were deadful in the vast majority of cases. Perhaps the ultimate in grot was the BSR TCA-H cartridge tracking at 10g and producing around 10V (yes, volts!) rms to drive a single UL84 pentode. NFB? You are having a giraffe!

But.Oh how the kids loved them!

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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby Brian M Rose » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:09 am

There is a remarkable similarity between TV displays and speakers.
Monitors are designed to be accurate - 'speakers' are often designed to sound 'exciting' and it's the same with TVs when you see them in the shop. There is generally a 'shop' setting which is vastly inaccurate, over saturated, bearing no resemblance to either reality or the original programme material.
I recently bought a Panasonic OLED TV. Now I'm very fortunate to have a friend who is one of the main consultants to both the BBC and EBU when it comes to camera technology; it was actually he who recommended the Pana.
We spent a morning setting up, using standard test patterns as well as his own and in the end he agreed, 'I'm happy with that,' Now the setting was vastly different on HDTV at least, to the native, out-of-the-box setting.
At least the Pana does allow you to go VERY deep into the Menu (for example it includes REC709). So yes, for a £1.6K TV it is very good indeed; not a Master Monitor, (Sony's original 24" display cost about £25K!) but certainly good enough as a client sign-off display in post production.
The only down side is that the built in speakers are more than useless - but that's another story.
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby MOF » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:58 pm

Arpangel wrote:I think the reason why CD was so successful, is because you can't really have a badly set-up CDplayer, but you can have a terribly set up turntable, or one so bad it will damage your records, neither of these things were applicable to CD. In the case of CD it was the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

It's more than that, the frequency response and dynamic range are so much better on CD. Vinyl goes through at least four generations (acetate to factory stampers) and they all degrade over time.
Tracking distortion and bass/loudness restrictions as you go further into the centre of the vinyl, then there's the physical vinyl roar and clicks and scratches.
The only good thing in my view about the vinyl revival is the cover artwork and the smell. :D
The early CDs did have issues of being cut from RIAA equalised tapes instead of the studio masters and early digital mastering console faders weren't very good, but oversampling has sorted out the latter and I don't think anyone uses production master tapes now as the record companies have, where possible, realised the value in quality remastering from studio masters.
A lot of people seem to like vinyl, but I think that's because of it's limitations/distortions, but that's what we're talking about, it's got a sound of its own. CDs have much greater fidelity.
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:55 pm

I love the ritual of playing vinyl. I love the ability to tinker with the turntable -- tracking and skating weights, VTA, etc -- and the necessity to clean and handle discs with great care and precision. I like being able to read and enjoy the sleeve notes without reading glasses.

But while I enjoy and appreciate the sound for its nostalgic character, I know it's far from accurate and it has very obvious technical flaws and failings.

Now.... 15ips quarter inch tape... That's a proper format... :lol:
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby James Perrett » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:42 am

MOF wrote:The early CDs did have issues of being cut from RIAA equalised tapes instead of the studio masters and early digital mastering console faders weren't very good, but oversampling has sorted out the latter and I don't think anyone uses production master tapes now as the record companies have, where possible, realised the value in quality remastering from studio masters.

I think that's a bit of a myth in most cases as production master tapes normally include all the mastering processing but not RIAA eq. Sometimes they'd be flat but include instructions about the eq required for the cutting engineer - this would have been the case for large record companies who had cutting rooms all over the world with similar gear in them. So yes, you may be hearing masters that were intended to sound good when cut to vinyl and may have had the frequency extremes removed but that was probably what most of the other formats (like cassette and 8 track) were made from too. I'd have to say that I did hear a Heaven 17 CD that sounded like it had RIAA eq on it but that was the only one I've ever encountered.
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:08 am

I love CDs and records. CDs in particular represent to me a great balance between fidelity and convenience. Not to mention the fact that some of them at least have half decent artwork and inserts.

Also, when (the only question in my mind is how long before) the sun throws a wobbly and whomps the Earth with a massive EMP due to a solar flare or something like it, CDs and records (as far as I know) will survive it, and although there may be no players working to use them they should be recreated relatively soon after, and the information won't be lost.

In the event, while the world adjusts to a period without working electronics of any kind on the consumer front, and assuming it happens in my lifetime, you'll find me at the nearest piano writing my next album in readiness. Probably powered by schadenfreude given the angst of a couple of billion people exhibiting withdrawal symptoms from the drug that is Facebook ;)
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby MOF » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:39 am

I think that's a bit of a myth in most cases as production master tapes normally include all the mastering processing but not RIAA eq

It’s a long time ago now but I seem to remember reading (in Studio Sound) about the unseemly rush by some labels to get CDs out resulted in that happening.
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby Jammondenon62 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:45 am

Eddy Deegan wrote:I love CDs and records. CDs in particular represent to me a great balance between fidelity and convenience. Not to mention the fact that some of them at least have half decent artwork and inserts.

Also, when (the only question in my mind is how long before) the sun throws a wobbly and whomps the Earth with a massive EMP due to a solar flare or something like it, CDs and records (as far as I know) will survive it, and although there may be no players working to use them they should be recreated relatively soon after, and the information won't be lost.

In the event, while the world adjusts to a period without working electronics of any kind on the consumer front, and assuming it happens in my lifetime, you'll find me at the nearest piano writing my next album in readiness. Probably powered by schadenfreude given the angst of a couple of billion people exhibiting withdrawal symptoms from the drug that is Facebook ;)
.........I have to say that this example of future events possible are very possible and possibly you may be one of a few that will have a No.#1 Hit (new) for quite a spell....... and, yes, I know of many that will be facing the dreaded Facebook withdrawal that will be a sight to behold when all they can do is try to remember the last post they read and IF they left a "like" on it, LOL! We can be assured that old "Facey" will be back online just as soon as someone even creates a simple static spark! I wouldn't want our "friends" to feel insecure or unfriended in any way, right? As you may be able to tell......I am NOT a spokesperson for the conglomerate called "Facebook", but really like my shellac 78's and piles of 33 and a thirds!! Great read, Eddy D.!!
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby Rich Hanson » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:14 am

I recall that a lot of early CDs used pre-emphasis and correctly set the pre-emphasis flag in the subcode, but many early players didn't implement the required de-emphasis, leading to overly bright playback of those discs.
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby John Willett » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:39 pm

MOF wrote:A lot of people seem to like vinyl, but I think that's because of it's limitations/distortions, but that's what we're talking about, it's got a sound of its own. CDs have much greater fidelity.

I think it's also because the record companies have buggered up the CD by compressing the music into oblivion because of the "loudness wars". :madas: :madas: :madas:

You can only compress lightly with vinyl which means that you still get music.

If you compressed the CD with a light touch the same way as vinyl, then the CD would be far far better. :thumbup:
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby The Red Bladder » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:51 pm

John Willett wrote:If you compressed the CD with a light touch the same way as vinyl, then the CD would be far far better. :thumbup:
I have one customer that comes to me for a series of classical piano pieces about once a year and every time the label wants the thing LOUDER "We need at least another 10dB!" they insist!

I've tried arguing the point, but to no avail! The funny part is that they insist on 96kHz sample rate because they read somewhere that it is better!
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:53 pm

Do they get their extra 10dB though? :headbang:
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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

Postby MOF » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:36 pm

I think it's also because the record companies have buggered up the CD by compressing the music into oblivion because of the "loudness wars". :madas: :madas: :madas:

You can only compress lightly with vinyl which means that you still get music.

If you compressed the CD with a light touch the same way as vinyl, then the CD would be far far better. :thumbup:

I don't know enough about vinyl mastering to comment, but if so then you have a point, I don't like the loudness wars either.
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